The ultimate bobcat dog...


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The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Dan McDonough » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:56 pm

If you were to open your mind and stand out side of the world of hound hunting (not forgetting it) and look at the whole of the canine species and have to start from scratch, what would you put together to make a bobcat dog?

The best bobcat dog I've seen myself was nothing but a hound with an enormous brain but after reading David's book I went from thinking of the best dog I could find to the best dog that could be made. While I do have a fair amount of experience with quite a variety of breeds of dog, the more I think about it the more I realize that I can not get my mind wrapped around this all by myself.

Currently I hunt some pretty nice Loepards and the extra brains really makes the difference with this breed. I'm always messing around with something on the side and lately I've been purchasing the ingredience to make an old gypsy style lurcher.

For those of you who are not familiar with the lurcher, it is a crossbred dog most commonly made up of a greyhound crossed with a boarder collie. There are many other possible crosses but this is the most popular and time tested cross. I'm actually going with a staghound cross on a boarder collie. I don't yet know where I'll go from there but that is how I'm starting.

I'd love to hear about anything anyone else may be doing "on the side" to explore the possibility of the next level of bobcat dog, even if it's just something you've seen.
American Leopard Hounds...Nose of a hound, brains, speed and disposition of a good curdog...what else do you want?
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Jeff Eberle » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:50 pm

Dan,I'll go ahead and start this fight. What works for me is the mutts Bob Fogel is mixing up that goes back to his Dottie dog (Walker) & The Hank dog (Leopard ) that he got from you. He has thrown in a little bit of BMC on some and a little bit of Border Collie on others. They are the biggest cheaters I have ever hunted , They will play as dirty as the game they are running at that time. One race will be wide open the next you might get two or three barks before they tree or they will open normal on the trail then shut up after the jump. It all depends on just how nasty the cat or fox is playing or the time of year middle of summer dryer then a bone or fresh snow or good rain, rocks , thick bush. Some guys don't like it some do what works for you may not work for me or the other way around. That is why I think there will never be the ultimate bobcat dog or hound of any kind because we all have different likes and dislikes in the dogs we run.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby dwalton » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:38 am

There are so many different styles of hunting, conditions, areas, and people. Different dogs work for different people and places. Areas seen to come up with types of dogs. Some may work in all areas to a degree. An ultimate bobcat dog I say each to their own, all and none are perfect, but each of us has the best. Dewey
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby catdogs » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:29 am

If something comes along that makes better music than a pack of hounds, i'd be interested......until then, I'll stick with my black and tans...even if they dont catch everything I put 'em on.
The hounds all got sick last week, so I gave them a rest. Had to spend a few days with my wife......She seems like a nice person.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Dan McDonough » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:51 pm

I guess what I'm kind of looking for is some stories of odd mixes or purebreds that have been useful to someone in getting the job done. It's all of those tidbits of information that help formulate ideas. Sometimes those stories don't give you direct useful ideas but they give you that important piece that you were missing or even help you to decide not to do something. It all goes into the brain and comes out in one form or another.

While leopards remain my first project, the lurcher project is something that I've thought about for a long time. Besides the super abilities of the cross, they have one other important trait that it shares with the old standard breeds used for everything under the sun...repeatability. The boarder collie X sighthound is very reliable and can produce their type and be very usefull with relative ease.

First off, I'd like to state the obvious for obvious reasons. This cross is not ment to replace the coldtrailer. These are ment to catch and close the deal.

I'm not dissatisfied with the leopards as I think they are exceptional as closers. In fact, I would go as far to say that it is easier to get a good closer in the leopard breed than nearly any other line of dogs I've messed with...I'm just not the type to settle.

David is right when he wrote that a dog specificly designed for bobcats has not been made on any large scale. We all know of several routes to take to get something that will work well on bobcats and even some that work very well but they are not easy to stamp out and repeat in any great number.

It seems to me that when the Shadetree first started and eventually became the B.G.H. a window was opened and the light was let into the world of bobcat hunting. The natural progression would eventually go towards the development of a breed of dog that was specificly made to hunt bobcats.

If you take the running dogs for instance, the obvious limitation is in the tree department. They work well in some areas and not in others. The mtn. curs are limited because it's way to hard to find one that will hold an old track. Some of the tree bred hounds are pretty close but it's in pockets and repeatability is difficult. There may be several lines that can regularly put out good bobcat dogs and are getting very close. Some lines of Leopards are even closer as it's pretty easy to get the brains at a high level. Remember, I'm talking repeatability here, exceptions are only a distraction from the goal.

Jeff has a glowing account of the dogs that Bob Fogel is making but he hasn't come up with the stamp yet. If Bob gets to the point were his dogs are easily repeatable he'll have made a mark. There are a lot of genes floating around in Bob's mix and it will be difficult to come up with a homogenous stamp.

Now I'm reminded of the saying that goes something like, "the biggesit advancements/successes come from the simplest solutions"...or something like that.

I've been doing a lot of research into some of the ancient breeds, the dogs that all of our current dogs are made up of. The answer is out there somewhere and I'd like to see it come about. It's not likely (statistically speaking) that it will be me who finds it but oh, what fun it will be to try. :)

There are some things I'm seeing in the dog world that give me great hope that an advancement can be made in fairly short order but things like this happen because many factors in a person's life all come to gether to make it possible at the right time. I'm not to sure I've got the time, money and freedom to be that guy right now. The family is getting bigger and the income/expenditure ratio is narrowing and freedom...well many of you have kids so I don't have to explain that.

Just know that I'm working on an angle and I encourage others with the interest to do the same. If anyone wants to chat about it all I'm not guarded with my information and if anything I've found can help someone else, pick up the phone and lets get some thinking done in between hunts.
American Leopard Hounds...Nose of a hound, brains, speed and disposition of a good curdog...what else do you want?
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Unreal_tk » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:28 pm

Have you looked into international breeds? Germans, norweigans, africans? Just a thought. The breed that comes to mind is the Laikas? I remember reading a article about them being a fairly smart dog like the border collie but is already bred to hunt.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby mike martell » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:07 pm

My opinion of a true bobcat dog is shared by so few on this board.....I will follow Jeff Eberle's post since I had a week with one of his dogs in Canada. A little mutt by the name of Oscar. Oscar was named by my granddaughter here in Oregon and delivered by me to Doug in B.C.

Oscar weighs all of thirty pounds and whales on the mean bears at the ripe ago of under two years old and isn't looking to see if he has company over his shoulder. He runs, cheats and glad he doesn't know how to use a knife.... He truly defines what I look for in a dog. Oscar bumped a moose and went to Waylon on it as well. He is going to hunt you down and kill you....

How does Oscar perform on a Canadian Lynx? He goes to catching, in climb fly or die fashion.....He is a house dog as well and hangs out with the house cats that stay indoors.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Dan McDonough » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:34 pm

Does Oscar have any collie in him? Those dogs that cheat a track regularly and are also regularly successful are not just overly pumped up all the time. They are flying on brain power. It's pretty crazy to see.

As for the Lika, I think your right about them. The thing I have not run into is someone that will discuss the breed and talk about BOTH positive and negative points. If I ever get the chance to hunt with them I'll jump on it but I don't know a soul that hunts them on bobcat.
American Leopard Hounds...Nose of a hound, brains, speed and disposition of a good curdog...what else do you want?
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby mike martell » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:45 pm

Dan
I'm not sure. Jeff could answer your question. Those dogs originated from Bob Fogle and are the real deal. I suspect you might be right. Like a good cake, it would be great to find all the ingredients and try to replicate this style dog as closely as possible. Good luck with your endeavors and please keep us posted. I'm the first to admit I was stuck on hounds until I hunted some with running dog blood and now looking at and hunting the mutts....I'm not sure of anything!

You Take Care, Mike.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Jeff Eberle » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:28 pm

Dan , How many time would you like to see it repeated ? Bob has 6 or 7 generations of them so far. As for Oscar he is out of Esther & Amos that came from Bob. Esther has the BMC in her and Amos has the Border Collie in him.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Dads dogboy » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:14 am

Mr. Dan,

There are SO MANY different reasons why Hunters pursue the Bobcat in his many varied habitats that congealing a consensus on the "Ultimate Bobcat" Dog/Hound is going to be tuff.

For the South and Southeastern US, for the established Cultural reasons for Bobcat Hunting a "Pack" of Running bred Hounds of Walker, Trigg, Goodman, July or any of the lesser known "Fox Hound" breeds is going to be hard to beat to satisfy this regions Hunters by finishing Races with a Cat on the tailgate or up a tree! The Music is the Motivation in this region!

Now having grown up with these above mentioned Hounds, but being blessed with a Dad who "Used to be" opened minded, willing to travel to see how other successful Hunters were getting it done; I have figured out that if I wanted to see lots of DEAD Bobcats and hear very little in the way of Races. I would get one of the BEST females out of your Leopard Hounds for Brains, Tree and Speed. Then I would make a trip up to Maine and get one of Mr. Laney's Old style Short Eared Plott Males for Nose, Brains, Drive and Hair Coat.

Then I would hunt the Hide off of them together with an ole Broke Rig/Strike hound for about 4 to 6 months. When they are Broke and know what the game of choice is to be, I would then hunt them till the female came in, mate them (F1) and hunt the parents hard with the whole litter, continually culling till I had the best female and male pup left.

Now I would breed the Leopard female to her son and the Plott male to his daughter (F2) and again hunt these Pups till I got the best female and male Pup from each litter.

By now I would know which style Hound...Leopard or Plott gave me the most of what I was looking for (probably be the Laney Plott for me) and Breed the appropriate crosses to each other (F3).

After the 3rd generation Genetic consistency should appear. By the 5th generation with proper culling you should have a new Strain/line of Hounds that should EFFICIENTLY catch lots of Bobcats in any of the Regions where the Bobcat lives....not necessarily in the manner (Lots of Music) that some us like.....yet bobcat Eating son of a Guns!

JMO
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Unreal_tk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:39 am

What would be the appropriate cross after that 3rd generation? To the grandfather or father? To the littermate or cousin? *trying to wrap my brain still around this line breeding stuff*
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Dads dogboy » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:58 am

Thomas,

After reaching the F3 and determining who is the BEST Cat catcher (but with the style you prefer), Breed that Best F3 to which ever F2, F1, or even Foundation Hound that you feel was the best Game producer with the style that you liked!

There will be subtle differences like more or better mouths, better nose, more trail, more drive, etc. But after the F3 is mated back into the family the F4 should be pretty repeatable.....you have narrowed the Gene Pool down to a "Predictable" number so consistency should be prevalent!

You mentioned the European Hounds/Dogs earlier, we have friends who travel and Hunt a variety of Game all across the EU and Asia Minor. Most of the Hunters over there are trying to get Hounds/Dogs from over here.....it's kinda the "Grass is Greener" over there thing.

We have a very good friend who Squirrel Hunts Laikas.....they are great "Short Game" Dogs. Squirrels wonderful, Coon maybe OK....but after that not so much....nice House dog though.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Unreal_tk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:36 pm

Thanks Cary, that helped me a bunch. And I didn't know much about those breeds, just was a thought for Dan.

One the F2 cross. Would be keeping a male and female from each litter or just the best male or female even the same litter?

Started a new thread as to not take over Dans.
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Re: The ultimate bobcat dog...

Postby Old dog » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:40 pm

don't underestimate a brother sister on the f3 or f4 jmo
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