best walker breeding for bobcat dogs

[bluewalkers]

just wanting to see what everyone thinks is the best line of walkers for making consistant bobcat dogs? any info will help. thanks

[Tim Pittman]

Registered-Treeing Walker=Finley River
If papers aren't a concern then some of this with some running walker or trigg mixed in has produced age old results for many of the hard to please cat hunters around the whole country.

[Mike Leonard]

If crossed correctly and proven we still see many excellent bobcat type dogs for western hunting coming out of the old Nance line of dogs. It's not the papers that tree them but accurate and insightful breeding and culling to build the right type of dog is all important. I know of several ther breeders who are also doing well with this line of dogs. I wouldn't make a blanket statement and say they would be great in all bobcat situations around the country but they have seemed to work very well in northern and western areas. I think in the deep south you will still find that runing dog or runing dog crosses catch the most bob kittys.

[Tim Pittman]

[al baldwin]

[dwalton]

The top producing bobcat hunters in the northwest have one thing in common, they have running dog blood in there dogs. It has been a while since I have seen a full treeing walker or a coon bred dog that would work for me. They work for a lot of other people though. There are running dogs with over 1/2 running dog in them that tree and locate good. It takes a track smart dog to be a good locator not a tree smart dog. Good locating running dogs that tree have been bred for close to 40 years in California. If you start with full running dogs crossed on treeing dogs you will 40 years behind the times. They have kept 1/2 to 5/8 running in them and they tree. The purpose of the running dog is the track style. The purpose of the tree dog is treeing. 30 to 50 years ago when the treeing walker were fresh from the running dogs you had that track ability. What I see now is quick treeing dogs, that run wide and do not have the physical ability to hold up to hard hunting day after day in the treeing walkers. Now I have not tried all of the different treeing walkers but I have tried a lot. I know what works for me and works for a lot of top cat hunters. I mean guys that catch a lot of bobcats and tree most that they jump anywhere they hunt in any conditions. Not guys that have excuses why they did not catch the cat. JC mention that it had been 17 years since he saw a dog run a cat like he saw Johns dog run one. I will bet that both of those dogs had running dog in them. As far as a young guy getting a dog to bobcat hunt with maybe he should hunt with some bobcat hunters before he got a dog to decide what would work for him. If he wants to coon hunt get a coon dog or bear hunt get a bear dog. Good dogs can do it all but you can not beat a specialized dog for what he was bred for. Just something to think about. If you like it, it catches game for you and it pleases you hunt it. Dewey

[twist]

Have tried about every make and model out there and have found the Nance strain I have to do very well and excell on bobcats at a higher rate than the others. Andy

[slowandeasy]

[dwalton]

Willie you are totally correct. The thing that I have to watch with my dogs is to much speed, they will push each other to fast and over run the track, making unnecessary loses or you will have some dogs just running to keep up. When running 4 to 10 dogs on a bobcat race without the tools that we have available today few people can tell what a dog is really doing. A dog can not take away from the group with the goal of catching that cat or any game. one dog can make a negative difference in the goal of treeing that game. It is more critical on bobcat than other game. With that said I have not seen the perfect dog for bobcat [almost]. The key is to know the good and bad in a dog and being able to fine tune that dog where it lacks what it needs. Examples: Teaching a dog to tree or not slick tree, to not bark off track or going to dogs, being sticky on track, barking more than once on a bush, running down a road when a cat goes across. One should always breed for the perfect dog but be able to work with its faults. The smarter a dog is is naturally the easier it is to train. Dogs are just dogs the fault is in the breeder and trainer being able to recognize what he has and get the best out of them. Hunting behind dogs on foot or horse one is able to see whats going on much easier. The people that sit in a truck and make up a story as the whats going on handicaps themselves. One has to be honest with themselves before they can be an effective dog trainer. I am sure you have seen this a lot when you hunted fields trials. Good hunting Dewey

[al baldwin]

With all due respect for Dewey & Willie/s opinions, it is still my opinion that the average young hunter starting from scratch would be ahead to start with a Nance bred hound, from some established breeder, who has a proven stock for bobcat. Will use the slash dog that has been advertised lately as an example. However, important to remember no matter what bred you select, some will not turn out to be good hounds. Was not my intent to tell anyone how to bred the running crosses, may well be they would be wise to get those from some proven breeders. As for a dog that catches all bobcat in all conditions and all terrains, I have never witnessed such a hound or pack of hounds. That hound or pack may exist, but I serious doubt that. Respectfully Al

[mike martell]

Dewey makes some valid points.
Quote, what I see now is quick treeing dogs.
My opinion only on this subject.... quick treeing traits are found more often in full hound breeds of every color than in the hound running dog cross. Think about what these dogs were bred to do? One wants to tree and the other run.To perfect a bobcat hound to catch in the thick brush like we have in Western Oregon one must have some running blood to consistently catch cats. It wasn't that many years ago I would have said you are nuts!

I don't recommend how I use my dogs. I switch hit, meaning, I hunt many species from Lynx to bear and this keeps you handling the dogs with way more issues than when you concentrate on one species.Most dogs just don't have what it takes to accomplish this efficiently.

One thing we are proving is the difference in the nose of any hound breed vs. the running dogs.The difference is minimal and the end results are monumental. This also stuck with me a quote from David, Trail hounds are for your listening pleasure and the hound /running dogs are for catching game.
Simply stated, if I hunted bears only, I would hunt with a mix of running dog bred on to the hound.

This is supported in wolf country more every day like where I run bear.You stand on your head trailing and you are going to die.You suck the air out of a Bear or lynx and get to the tree you are much better off.Not to say there are not hounds that can accomplish this, just stating the now obvious to a whole bunch of us ex full hound hunters.

Mr. Baldwin also makes some valid points when getting started with hounds, probably wise to start with tree bred dogs.

You live in other wide open States you just don't understand how difficult running here can be. Central and Eastern Oregon is a cake walk compared to our dense brush region.Sure you have your spots and rocks etc, but not the tangles we deal with daily.

Back some thirty years ago hunting just north of J.C. and John a buddy had a full blood walker cat dog. I remember his words very well today....Damn coon/tree bred hounds. Bout the next empty tree I walk into in this thick brush in the middle of the night its going to be over for that dog.....Most guys would make excuses for the four out of ten empty trees and continue to hunt that style hound since the dog did tree the other six cats.

All dogs have holes and weakness. I spend all my time concentrating on the short comings of a dog and the strengths will carry you to the finish line.Not that I have to worry much about that anymore since I hunt all potlicker dogs and can't hunt like I once did, but I have had the chance to experiment with both and for the dogs in my kennel today. All have a blend of running dog....

Mike

[Dads dogboy]

BlueWalkers,

All the advise you have been given is Good!

The only thing I would say to you is that if you are looking for Treeing Walkers to fit your area(a Hunter should always try to fit his Hounds to the area he Hunts); then your area and Twist's is much the same....therefor no need to reinvent the Wheel! Go hunt with Andy and see if his Hounds are not what you are looking for.....I kinda think they are! Good Luck!

I get tickled that one small area where Shorttails are hunted has developed such a following for Dogs that would be culled in other areas.....areas where Hounds catch and TREE many more Bobcats each season than in this one Geographic area.

[twist]

A lot of solid advise given here an yes the handler is just as important as the dog be it full hound or crossed with runningdog if they do something wrong the handler neeeds to correct it if it can't be corrected like the slick treeing dog Mike was talking of that's just as much the handlers fault as the dog. Correct the problem or get rid of the dog or live with it I know what I would have done. Andy

[cobalt]

This post being in the "Treeing Walker Coonhounds" section to me means the guy is asking what treeing walkers might make a good cat dog. If I were to say it is a walker mixed with a border collie, I would look like an ass, so saying the only good walker for cat is one crossbred with a running dog to me is assinine, also. It is not some magical mix, any running dog with a certain treeing walker. Many, many don't make it. The ones that do, though, are awesome.
Twist and Leonard say Nance. Tim says Finley Riv. I say there are several lines that could make a guy very happy if you get the right ones. Jerry Hatton in Or. had House bred dogs that caught him a lot of cats and John York in Prospect, Or. had either Sackett or Nailor dogs that did it, too. I have seen Flatrock Coma dogs that were very impressive along with Hickorynut Harry dogs. I hear Hardwood Bozo dogs might be the ticket. Ya, you will get tree dogs out of these lines and maybe too much sometimes, but I think it's the minority not the majority especially when you are a decent trainer. And at least you play the odds of going to a tree with 1 dog and they're easier to train. Finding dogs out of proven big game or cat dog lines is probably the first thing I woud look for although I know a guy in Ca. who does well with Trackman blood.
Lastly, I wouldn't say those running dog crosses aren't without fault at the tree. I know at least one prime top shelf cat dog that pulled up slick many times this winter. She didn't like being the caboose in a freight train of other talent. She is half running dog.

[outlaw13]

So is it pretty safe to say that it doesn't matter what line of dogs you get and hunt the end result will be the qualification and the knowledge of the handler to get the dogs to do what pleases him. Seems to make sense why every big name line is talked about good and bad, probably a lot less to do with the dog and a lot more to do with the handler.