? to all cur hunters

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PlottPower
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? to all cur hunters

Postby PlottPower » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:06 pm

I've never been around or hunted with cur dogs, just hounds. my question is do they have a ball mouth or do they chop on track and chop on tree? I'm just wondering just looking thru full cry magazine its about 80% cur or feist now day and I'm not trying to be a smart ass either just wondering. here in cali its more hounds walkers and plotts etc, I dont remember ever hunting with anybody that had cur dogs even now or since i was little hunting with my dad! I dont read the cur dog article because i dont know much about them just trying to educate myself a little on other breeds and believe me I'v had just about every hound breed just prefer plotts. so just a question and just curious about them Thanks and have a good easter
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Jeff Eberle » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:03 pm

My Cur's are mostly chop mouth both track & tree but are easy to call treed. I"ve had some Leopard cur run with a bawl and one Mt. cur also. Mostly run cat & fox & bear with mine
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Pops » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:18 am

depends on the cur's line. most black mouths, catahoulas & i think laceys run silent. most mountain curs & breeds developed from them tend to be more open. treeing curs are mostly houndXcur and so tend to be more open.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby doghunter » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:20 am

in my opinion a cur is something ruff (pit, airdale, ridgeback Bulldog, rotweiler; ect.) crossed with something with a nose(hound of any type, bird dog ect).

then they keep line breeding until they have some uniformity. So depending on what line you get they all bark different. If you are looking at a certin breed of cur then you would need to talk to the person that will be selling you the dog.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Pops » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:19 am

yes there are folks calling crossed up dogs curs but they're not really correct.
in the Jan 04 issue of full cry, David Carr (RIP) detailed the history of the cur (also spelled cyr, kyr, kur & curr) in britain. his references detailed the cur as a distinct type along with the hound, collie, terrier, sighthound, bulldogge, & mastive at least as far back as the 13th century. the cur of that time was both a rough herding dog for cattle, hogs & horses AND a silent running trail dog used to steal game from the lands of the aristocracy. one of the early references he used noted that an exceptional boar dog was created by crossing the cur w/ a bulldogge or mastive. the word cur for a type of dog existed for at least a century before the word curtail. the word wasn't used to denote a crossed up (mongrel) or cowardly dog until the mid-late 1800s well after the developement of the dog pits but after the end of the bull baiting. coincidentally this is also the time when dog shows as we know them now began.
the nbritish cur is most likely the primary ancestor of all true cur breeds in the USA (blackmouth, catahoula & mt cur and their uncrossed derivatives). dogs of similar function existed in other european countries and probably contributed (some considerably more than others). for example the french had/have a breed called the beauceron that was a very good boar dog & a herder of rough livestock. they can be difficult to distinguish from the larger catahoulas (of which they are the other primary ancestor). the german pointing breeds started as silent trail dogs on fur.
so while some folks do call crossed up dogs curs, unless the dogs actually descend of the british cur stock AND hunt & herd stock, they are not technically correct.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby doghunter » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:33 am

Thanks for the info Pops I use to get full cry and bayed solid and there is a lot of fieist I know nothing about. I have hunted around the big ranches in central and south florida my whole life and can only talk about the dogs we use here in florida. I just know what I see people breed into these lines of cur. I don’t know where the line started 700 years ago but I would be willing to bet today cur dog has been more influenced by the bulldog/pit and hound than any other breed including the one they originated from.

A fiest to me is under 30 pounds and shaggy.

I think most of the cur breeds today do have some kind of bulldog/pit in them (and I guess if you want to split hairs terrier by way of the bulldog.)

The cur breeders are largely unregulated and breed what they think will make the breed better. I am not downing this if a breeder is hunting the dogs and needs more nose why not step out to a hound or something with a better nose or more bite use a bulldog and then come back to the original line it can only make things better and if it is not an improvement culling will keep from getting traits you don’t want. The most important part of this is hunt them and cull the ones that don’t work or you end up with a pretty show dog that has a great history but wont hunt.

I know the breed history list one thing but if you genetic tested them (like a breeder I know in Ga. Did) I think you would be surprised what is in the cur breeds. (to name a few he tested papered plots and cataholas both showed other pure breeds in their line.)

I guess the point I was trying to make is if you want a good nose you need a hound. And if you want a silent dog you need some kind of site dog.

Somewhere in the middle is the cur dog. I know people with leopard catahola’s that slow trail and bark like a hound and I own one that has never barked on trail or a break. The difference I believe is what has been breed into the particular line you have.

I do believe if you breed a good bulldog and a hound the traits the pups come out with are the same as any cur breed. Although the puppies may never reproduce good dogs because it would be two different lines.

I did look cur up and the info you gave is correct I am not calling you out I am only commenting on what I have seen where I hunt and i think around here you have a better chance of having more bulldog or hound in a cur then the dogs used to steal game in Europe. so the only way in my opinion anyone looking for a cur dog of any type would be best served talking to the breeder and he will be able to advise of the particular traits his dogs have (like type of bark)

Thanks
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Rockcreek » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:01 pm

doghunter wrote:Thanks for the info Pops I use to get full cry and bayed solid and there is a lot of fieist I know nothing about. I have hunted around the big ranches in central and south florida my whole life and can only talk about the dogs we use here in florida. I just know what I see people breed into these lines of cur. I don’t know where the line started 700 years ago but I would be willing to bet today cur dog has been more influenced by the bulldog/pit and hound than any other breed including the one they originated from.

A fiest to me is under 30 pounds and shaggy.

I think most of the cur breeds today do have some kind of bulldog/pit in them (and I guess if you want to split hairs terrier by way of the bulldog.)

The cur breeders are largely unregulated and breed what they think will make the breed better. I am not downing this if a breeder is hunting the dogs and needs more nose why not step out to a hound or something with a better nose or more bite use a bulldog and then come back to the original line it can only make things better and if it is not an improvement culling will keep from getting traits you don’t want. The most important part of this is hunt them and cull the ones that don’t work or you end up with a pretty show dog that has a great history but wont hunt.

I know the breed history list one thing but if you genetic tested them (like a breeder I know in Ga. Did) I think you would be surprised what is in the cur breeds. (to name a few he tested papered plots and cataholas both showed other pure breeds in their line.)

I guess the point I was trying to make is if you want a good nose you need a hound. And if you want a silent dog you need some kind of site dog.

Somewhere in the middle is the cur dog. I know people with leopard catahola’s that slow trail and bark like a hound and I own one that has never barked on trail or a break. The difference I believe is what has been breed into the particular line you have.

I do believe if you breed a good bulldog and a hound the traits the pups come out with are the same as any cur breed. Although the puppies may never reproduce good dogs because it would be two different lines.

I did look cur up and the info you gave is correct I am not calling you out I am only commenting on what I have seen where I hunt and i think around here you have a better chance of having more bulldog or hound in a cur then the dogs used to steal game in Europe. so the only way in my opinion anyone looking for a cur dog of any type would be best served talking to the breeder and he will be able to advise of the particular traits his dogs have (like type of bark)

Thanks


You're talking about Crossbred dogs... not Curs. If you breed a Mountain Cur to a Pit Bull, you get a crossbred mutt, not a Cur. It might hunt, hell it might be the best dog ever, but it's still a mutt.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Pops » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:22 pm

the DNA tests to determine breed are 100% BS.
first off the companies doing it only have access to a small portion of the databases developed by research univerities. second those databases are not exhaustive as they generally represent a VERY small portion of any breed population 9in some breeds as little as 4-5 dogs from one line in one country). and third NO BREED HAS BEEN BRED 100% pure throughout it's existence (i'll eat my shirt if you can name 2 breeds that didn't start from crossbreeding & has been pure for all of recorded history). I know a lady on a pet forum whose black, smooth short coated, 80# dog was tested & came back as PRIMARILY maltese (a solid white long haired dog that runs about 8-10#) and all of the other breeds listed were below 30# in max size (6 were toy breeds like poodle & yorkie, the biggest was boston terrier which may occassionally reach 30#).
for example the original Plott family CURS (Mont was famous for tearing into anyone who called his dogs hounds), were crossed w/ the Denton family's Blevins hound (which is where the all black plotts came from, prior to this they only came in yellow, brindle & leopard spotted). Von crossed in bloodhound (which introduced the saddlebacks). and Taylor Crockett is alledged to have crossed to pit bulldog and great dane (which is usually substantiated by the 100# or LARGER dogs that came from his line).
SO no, the modern curs are not PURE descendants of the old british curs, but they are the ones that held most closely to type & performance (although most Mt Curs have drifted far from the dual purpose & silent running there are still lines that will work stock like a champ & catch coons that night and most of those are silent runners).
you don't have to take my word on the plotts, you can research it yourself.
Last edited by Pops on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Pops » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:40 pm

just wanted to add here is a list of some breeds (that i can think of) that descend from the old british curs either directly or indirectly.
mt cur (& all the lines derived from it like kemmer, TTB & canadian)
blackmouth cur (all lines)
catahoula cur
lacey (despite the propaganda it's most likely a family line of mt cur)
leopard cur
old english sheepdog (really a cattle dog)
welsh corgi
queensland heeler (blue/red heeler or australian cattle dog)
stumpy tailed cattle dog (natural bob tailed heeler from OZ, some lines are referred to as smithfields which was a famous type of cur dog from smithfield england)
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby doghunter » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:56 pm

Thanks Pops I appreciate your opinion on the curs. And although we have always hunted cur dogs I have never considered them as "purebreds"

The genetic testing I was talking about that was done on the catahola's, Plots and mountain cur and they were all positive for walker hound. (The boy that had the testing done thought this was breed into them at some point for tournament coon hunting more barks at the tree better score is what he said).

He mainly breeds the Catahoula, Plott and Mountain curr but he did have other curs and fiest that were papered. I won’t use his name out of respect for him but he was a well known breeder and a true houndsman.

The reason he was doing genetic testing was to try to get some of the old time dogs back because so many people are changing the breed by breeding for looks or other reasons it was hard to get a dog that would work (good nose, silent on track and drive). He first had his lines tested Catahoula, Mountain Curr and Plott then he had a baseline. He would test any dog he wanted to breed to try to match up a line that would reproduce some of the original line and keep the curs and plot line he had pure not because he cared about a pure breed but because the original dogs had the hunting qualities he wanted.

I agree with you there are a lot of problems with genetic testing because of limitations of knowing what you are starting with and the amount of data is too much to actually process. Then on top of it all you have an anomaly but he thought you could at least rule out some stuff like staying away from a Catahoula that had a lot of pit or walker in him. But it was impossible and he stopped because he found every dog he tested was all crossed up to start with.

Again I am not arguing there is a number of curr breeds that people take great pride In . But I just believe that those cur breeds have a lot of something else in them, at least where I am.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby Pops » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:21 am

you're missing the point,
1. the DNA testing CAN NOT tell a dog's breed. they literally cannot tell a walker from a mastiff from a chihuahua. all they CAN do is tell if two (or more) SPECIFIC dogs are related I.E. is the sire on the papers really the sire? your friend could have owned, raised, & bred the last 10 generations of EVERY dog he tested & his daddy the 20 generations before that and the test results still would have said the dogs were mixed.

2. NO BREED is "pure" somewhere along the way they have ALL had something else added either intentionally or otherwise. for that matter breeds are (mostly) relatively new invention since about the late 1800s. before that there were types & lines but not really breeds as we know them. AND people then even more than now simply bred what worked best because results were what mattered. for some people it was the difference between eating & starving.

3. what i wrote about the origin of curs in britain & their contribution to the breeds i listed is not opinion, but a summary of the extensive & dedicated research of a man who was truly passionate about hunting dogs in general & curs in particular.
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby lifreediver » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:18 am

POPS i am inpressed with your discription and knowledge on most post but the dna stuff is a little out dated was on the phone the other day with company the big dog you say the lady had that they said was maltese well this used to be the problem and it is better now because they identify more breeds now they keep up dateing there base the big black dog deffinetly has maltese in it the problem is it is probably a secondary breed or lets say 25 percent of the dogs genetic code but if the data base cant name the primary breed the 75 percent that is not listed or identifided in the base by defalt it will list maltese as primary because it sees it next year or even in the same year that could change another test might have more dog breeds listed then see and name the primary then show maltese as secondary gene i will bet a real mountain cur and a real pitbull would almost be the same a joke is a cur with hound as a primary and neopolation masstiff as a primary in a pitbull blues
all dogs r mutts yea maybe by next year you should have pretty good evidence thatthe guy with multibreeds in his yard has multibreeds in his purebreed papered dogs up front primary do they bark run silent catch game maybe but the fact is there mutts up close :beer not way back i think they can id more than 50 breeds
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Re: ? to all cur hunters

Postby matt123huntinglion » Tue May 15, 2012 4:16 pm

I WAS LUCKEY TO KNOW RICHARD MCDUFFY TALKED TO HIM WHEN WAS ALIVE A LOT .I WAS NOT SMART AND DID NOT WRITE EVERY THING DOWN.HIS LINE OF CAMUS CURS FROM WHAT HE SAID DO NOT HAVE HOUND IN THEM .DONT HUNT LIKE HOUNDS CHOP MOUTH ON TRACK CHOP ON TREE KNOW WHEN LOOKING AT GAME.DOGS HAVE BRAINS HAVE SOME GREAT HOUNDS.WISH THEY HAD BRAINS.SEE WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE BREEDING HOUNDS TO CURS CALLING THEM
CURS. IF YOU WANT A DOG WITH BRAINS GET A CUR . HUNTED WITH OVER 20 YEARS .IF YOU WANT FUR HUNT A CUR IF YOU LIKE THE SOUND HUNT A HOUND. WAS TOLD TO ME BY SOME ONE THAT HAS HUNTED
OVER 40 YEARS 3 DIFFERENT PACKS A DAY SIX DAYS A WEEK. HARD TO BEAT THAT I HAVE A LONG WAYS TO GET IN WOOD THAT MANY TIMES.SO HUNT WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND GOOD LUCK TO ALL. :idea:
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