oh sorry

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oh sorry

Postby Curtis Wilcox » Wed May 26, 2010 10:15 pm

Hey!I didn't know that was beer I dont go for drinkin' no beer. I thought it was cool aid.If You belive one word OFDW says better have another sip of that cool aid it gets sweeter every time!Old Curt
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Re: oh sorry

Postby dwalton » Thu May 27, 2010 10:23 pm

The ODFG post was pulled because of a lot of unanswered question. We are trying to get the answers. We don't know if it is replacing completely the bird nesting rule or adding to it. It will not change the pursue season for bobcat. It will not allow us to run bear or cougar. It may allow us to exercise our dogs by roading them or laying drags. The ODFW is on our side on this don't hammer them. They can not give us bear or cougar back. A vote of the people or the legislator only can do this. We will let people know what going on as soon as we know. The law is the law no matter how unfair or unjust. We can only change it by working together not by complaining or badgering the people that did not make it. Dewey
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Re: oh sorry

Postby sewellstaxidermy » Fri May 28, 2010 12:33 am

So why exactly was the post pulled? Mr. Martell was factual with his statement. The unanswered questions you speak of are ones the USDA should be trying to get to the bottom of with ODFW. Maybe you should get someone in OUSDA that could actually get something done legislatively for Oregon houndsmen like Mr. Mike Martell who is doing more as an individual then OUSDA as a group.
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Re: oh sorry

Postby Marshall » Fri May 28, 2010 2:19 am

sewell, i could not have said it better myself and i would love to hear the answer to that! There is absolutely no reason that that post should have been pulled. Mike is fighting tooth and nail for every single houndsmen in this state weather they like him or not. You will not see him put stuff on here unless he has the cold hard facts to back it up. It does not suprise me that somebody from the ousda has not replied, they seem to avoid all questions directed at them when they seem to know the answer to it all. Why doesnt someone that is involved with them get on here and say what they have to say insted of telling you to call them and then they dont answer or call you back. Call me crazy but i say fight fight fight and then fight more for what is ours insted of trying to reason because that has litterally got us NOTHING! If someone on here can get on here and try to prove Mike martell wrong with what he is saying then i say give er hell but, I think there is a reason that nobody has and it is because he is absolutely 110% right in what he says. How is it that the hired guns can run down these bears and lions with hounds and shoot every single one they tree? Hell i thought that is why it was banned was becuase it was unethicle to do such a thing and yet we pay for people to do it, And do you think a cable snare gives a rats ass if it has a lactating sow or a cub or a female lion or kitten in it? I think you can answer that one for yourself. Please don't get on here and say this is not the way to go about it and then give no alternative, If you have one then lets hear it. It is truely time to put up or shut up!

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Re: oh sorry

Postby Buddyw » Fri May 28, 2010 3:04 am

I pulled it because I posted it as a curtiousy for folks to read and discuss the topic at hand... Not Bitch and whine... I knew better to post it in the first place, Had I thought about it I wouldn't have done it. No good deed goes unpunished..

I was actually hoping for people to read and comment share thoughts about the draft at hand.. (what was I thinking??) , and it went back to the same thing it always does.. Bears and cougars, Bitching and whining.. It's not constructive to what is on the agenda, I'll read it, I encourage you to get a copy (By the way if you've been active and doing something and been contacting ODFW about the dog rules and bird nesting then they would have emailed you a copy also.. Here's is where I put my little "talk is cheap" jab.. :D ) and read it and figure out if it's a good thing, or a Bad thing and come to your own conclusion.

easy solution.. Start your own post, and hammer away, I just delete my posts which that was, but when I pay almost 3,000 dollars in server costs to keep this website running each year I don't loose too much sleep over it.
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Re: oh sorry

Postby Curtis Wilcox » Fri May 28, 2010 4:27 am

Well I talked with Buddy tonight ,He told Me His reasons made perfect sense. Mike Martell is completely right! However his post covered two topics, nesting hab and bear/cougar. The topic was training/nesting. Dewey do you drink your coffee black? Maybe that's how they're slipping in the kool-aid. Can you name one thing the ODFW has done to help houndsmen? I can name you things in the past and present where they're trying to oppress hound hunting. Old Curt
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Re: oh sorry

Postby mike martell » Fri May 28, 2010 7:08 am

when you think about the seat belt law, the helmet law and the cell phone law and the law for a law you begin to see a pattern of loss of our rights across the board.what we fail to understand is very simple. this is about all oregon hunters and hound hunters alike. has nothing to do with ousda or any independent hound hunter.bears and cougars? bitching and whining? what? second of all. bird nesting, bears, cougar are all under one umbrella as far as i'm concerned. personally odfw needs to just state for the record why it implemented bird nesting in the first place?

to me it is just a convenient easy mechanism to keep the hound hunters out of the woods during the critical times odfw has usda hired to cable snare black bears and into the late summer when a person may be tempted to go astray and run a few bear.why wasn't bird nesting a problem before the ban? odfw didn't appear to alarmed that my hounds were going to flush or point grouse from 1985-1994.do you think birds are still nesting in july? i might buy this when the little hatchlings are buggering around but come on..odfw has a set agenda about bird nesting rule. i would like to see odfw place a rule that just simply states it has no use for me and my hounds rule, at least i would know where i stand. i don't own bird dogs and to accept this is insane.quit beating around the bush. nancy taylor(odfw corvallis)simply hates hounds and hound hunters and has said so to my face about all oregon hound hunters can't be trusted is why she likes using"her boys" (usda) so i have to assume what she says is what she means.

why do i oppose odfw's ron anglin? hmmm... last year when i had a closed door meeting he stated sportsmen hunters can't/don't meet management objectives(can't kill enough bears)...i really don't care. before they go and issue unlimited authority to snare "our" bears i just asked why odfw hasn't opened the flood gates for the sportsmen hunters to have a crack at hunting the bears first. never mind hounds and bait. how about boot hunters? when odfw put 385 spring tags in my home district and i can't draw a tag is where i draw the line.besides he knows full good and well we can't agree on nothing and will never fully engage in fighting for our hunting rights. the man is pretty sharp and calculated.he has placed his money on all of us self destructing.near as i can tell he is dead on!

i have to go on the preference points system and wait several years to draw a tag and then i find out odfw just allocated 45 harvest tags for one timber company doesn't set real well.forget about the ratio of bears harvested vs. the number of hunters.it don't matter if all we can harvest is 1%. to me this is why it is called sport hunting...mr. anglin knows we can't compete with snares and is under pressure to use them.bird nesting is a convenient tool to supress hound hunting activity during the months the snares are in place.


my agenda is simple and clear.make odfw rewrite the bird nesting rule. i really don't care if they make it a felony...as long as there is clarity and you are able to understand the law.the way it stands no one knows including osp and the judges that hear the case when a citation is issued. while we are on the topic...i'm hell bent on getting the state and federal government out of the hound hunting business for profit.if it so critical to keep all dogs out of woods during this time of year to protect the nesting birds then keep all dogs out of the woods including the federal hounds.

as long as odfw can doop the oregon legislature into writing them a check each time it goes after more cougar it really don't need any of us.time we all face the music and the facts...if odfw really liked oregon hound hunters it would defend our hunting.all i keep hearing from odfw is this... hound hunters can't be trusted....bird nesting rule makes osp's job real easy to keep hound hunters side lined....then i read where a oregon hound hunter has stated odfw really likes us hound hunters..... don't know,all i know is maybe ron anglin really does like us but it appears he likes bird nesting and usda more.bottom line...there ain't much incentive for the man to like us.how strang this whole deal is playing out. odfw does this and no one has a problem but myself and a few other guys on here.evidently the rest of you don't have an issue with bird nesting rule and the government doing your hunting..it goes hand in hand...

like i stated before...i will go on fighting for our rights in salem. ...go ahead and condemn me...don't really care. i'm doing something about it.i stand on principal and damn proud to stand beside heath, marshall and curt other than that if you ain't willing to fight for your hunting and your god given rights you deserve what you get.
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Re: oh sorry

Postby Buddyw » Fri May 28, 2010 12:33 pm

Here again is the issue at hand.. hundreds of words on this topic. and absolutely Nothing is about the specific topic I posted... "NOTHING"

Some how in your mind you are trying to explain the Bird nesting and Legitamacy to me..... News Flash Guys.. I'm SOLD.. I agree with you 100%.

For the record: Bitching and whining.. Might have been a Poor Choice of words on my part... I was tired last night...I'll Appoligize for that probably uncalled for and inflamatory. It was off topic would be a better choice of words..
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Re: oh sorry

Postby mike martell » Fri May 28, 2010 2:26 pm

looks like we have reached the summit or cleared a major hurdle here. i think for the most part we are beginning to agree on the issues.i won't get my self worked up thinking it will last. realistic thinkig is what i'm about and odfw relations are shaky at best and whenever i get involved with them i end up in the defensive mode, i hope for the best but always expect the worst with them.how about we go back on topic with bird nesting rule.

this rule is not on the top of my priority list.we have far greater issues with the commission....however we need to resolve this as well. i'm up to my eye balls with odfw over some related programs odfw is engaged in. i will do as buddy has requested. when the time is right i will start another post and we can hash it out. as for now lets get back on topic. bird nesting....dogs running at large.

this is another tough topic. do i really want bird nesting to be a felony...not really. i want clarity and the ability to open the regulations without the aid of a philadelphia lawyer and look up the law and be able to act accordingly.know if i can road my hounds legally or not. i brokered a deal with our local game officer before i left to go hunting earlier this month, the deal was road my dogs on the same road with no tracking collars and with shock collars alone. this worked out real well with officer burkholder. he is a very reasonably game officer...but what if i would have encountered a sheriff or maybe another osp officer. i would have recieved a ticket for roading my dogs under bird nesting dogs at large.

wording and terminology is my biggest concern whenever it comes to any rule or law pertaining to the commission.what i have experienced many times over the past happens to be how a rule is worded and establishing who is the authority having jurisdiction over those rules. in the case of bird nesting.i'm of the opinion it doesn't pertain to us at all, however it is a convenient tool to restrain hound hunters from the woods.

this is another example of what i'm talking about.... who spun this rule? odfw or osp? or both? seems pretty apparent both agencies have a great deal of time bringing this rule to the center of our hound hunting.

this rule is making convicted outlaws out of many legally abiding hound hunters all across oregon. this is my reasoning for never accepting any form of kill permit from odfw.( i don't care who believes this or not!) in the past my troubles begin with osp, odfw this way, a simple permit that reads i can do something based on something out of the oregon administrative rule book when in reality when it falls into the hands of osp is disected and determined i'm doing something illegal.

the bigger issue in oregon is this. when this happens the person carrying out the act is then on the spot and defending his honor. or in most cases his freedon to hunt. this happened to me twice since 1983. the last was under measure 18 and doing bear damage control with hounds. i recieved a kill permit from central point bear biologist rosemary stussy and when i read the permit found my own issues in the "words". from there i sent the permit off to osp and later found if i acted on this permit i would be arrested.why should i be the one to have to do the legal leg work? ignorance of the law is no excuse.that is the final word of law.this comes back to the person holding the permit not odfw.

this is how most issues, permits, or rules play out. at least for myself. i don't know about anyone else. i want all rules to be fundamentally basic and black and white. this is how all this gets stared. sometimes it is just easier to go do what you want and make osp prove you are doing something wrong. in the end....we end up right where we are today. no trust,no relations with both osp and odfw. do i want this...no... how do i / we solve this? how about clarity of the rules. from there if i know i'm breaking the rules can expect to be cited accordingly. i don't have a problem with all this...we just need to be on the same page. right now we are not even on the same planet.

we don't get this figured out and soon i guarantee you odfw and hunters are done!
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Re: oh sorry

Postby dwalton » Fri May 28, 2010 3:10 pm

As I said before for those that could not hear it. I feel that ODFW are on our side here and maybe that is a first. They did not take our bear and cougar season away and many of them want us to have it back. I don't believe in more laws or people telling me what I can and can't do. But we live in a democracy. Complaining never accomplishes any thing. The bear and cougar issue is something different. I thing people will be pleased with the bird rule when it is complete. The people that have been working with ODFW are not even sure what is up, how can they or others judge a draft until things are clear. Trust them on this one and everyone will know as soon as they do. I take cream in my coffee you can buy me a cup anytime you want to sit down and have a constructive conversation. Dewey
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Re: oh sorry

Postby mike martell » Fri May 28, 2010 6:50 pm

hey cat man, well said.complaining may not be the answer but holding folks accountable is is a good start.trust me when i say i like nothing more than to put my faith in those folks in salem. i think we would all be well served to work together on all issues.i hope i have gotten through to odfw the difference between usda trappers- hunters and hound hunters...we are a different breed and more closely resemble animals ourselves.none of us are weekend warriors and when one side is down on the other than there is only one winner... the opposition forces. since the bird nesting is what it has been all this time i think we are safe in assuming we have only one way to go on this issue.....up. how could it get worse. as for the other issues i will keep them private and when i have some solid information on a direction change i will give you a call dewey and bring you up to date. i could care less about both species of game i'm fighting for but feel we have a need to fight for the next generation not to mention our rights. both species are trash lol....but some peoples trash is someone elses treasure.dewey i really don't care if we disagree or not. we all have an opinion on what impacts us the most. i would be glad to buy you a cup of coffee and have a civil discussion. haven't spoke to you in some time. hope you are doing well and the best of luck to you and your hounds. mike
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Re: oh sorry

Postby Tim Pittman » Sat May 29, 2010 4:45 pm

1.for the ?about "why was this not used before 1994"-the rule states unless authorized by odfw=legal season for that time in question.
2.rule was written to keep bird dog field trialers out of the refuges
3.Buddy,Dewey and myself are all with OUSDA
4.it looks like we have made some progress-they have a draft now,where were we last year?
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Re: oh sorry

Postby Curtis Wilcox » Sat May 29, 2010 6:51 pm

Okay let's make it simple. ODFW can reinstate original 1978 bird nesting hab. reg. pertaining to bird dogs. Then extend pursuit coon and bob-cat season pertaining to hounds. Now they've helped us and helped the birds; no new laws or rules to be misconstrued and used against us. I have said this before out loud at an OUSDA meeting, open forum that I am against a training season of any kind, anywhere, anytime. The reason being I believe the word training which to my knowledge has not been defined by ODFW, and when it is we probably will not like the result. I believe this will be used against us by anti's or the ODFW itself. As I stated before I can give you information where ODFW is trying to oppress hound hunting today. How can they be on both sides of the fence? Old Curt
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Re: oh sorry

Postby nuttybuddy » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:20 pm

Well guys, here are some facts: When Rod K was president of OUSDA there were varying opinions and some lively discussions on all issues. He and I disagreed on several things (quite loudly at times) but it was ok. It is ok to disagree. What always happens in any group or organization is that about four per cent of the people do most of the work, and about half of the remaining 96 % do nothing but gripe and complain about what is or isn't getting done. Usually they don't have enough information to even make an educated statement on an issue. I know that for certain, because we worked tirelessy for 12 years together. It is much more productive to form proposals for solutions than bash others for what they do. I know for sure that the bird nesting law as it is written was intended to keep bird dogs out of nesting areas---and only bird dogs. Otherwise, the the game officers could have a hey day at every trail head and recreational area in the State. Somewhere along the line, it has morphed into a ridiculous hammer for some of the smaller brained enforcement people. I am sure OUSDA would foot the court costs and attorney fees to fight it and win if someone would step up to the plate with it. Worth a try? And lastly, listen up: very soon WOLVES will be your absolute biggest problem. I suggest you all put your differences aside and form a plan or two. You are going to need it. Two more hounds were killed and eaten here in Idaho where we moved. It is not pretty........ Greg
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Re: oh sorry

Postby mike martell » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:23 pm

we need to suggest to odfw what it is we are looking to get out of bird nesting. i spent some time with brandon who is the bird biologist with odfw in salem last week. the draft is empty. it has language for field trials. we need provisions for exercising our hounds or any legal reason to be in the woods.not to mention the months spelled out in plain simple english.request a free copy from odfw and read it. they are still accepting input. don't and you get what you get!

last year when i was at the capitol i was also at the odfw headquarters in salem and from there i went to the state attorney generals office where i filed a complaint into bird nesting under " minority user group discrimination" a law intended for bird dogs being misconstrued by odfw/ osp for their convenience.

i have completed another complaint with the state a.g's office in salem. this is the mis handled use of h.b. 2971 of behalf of odfw. i'm demanding odfw implement some form of pilot program just like washington state to include hounds and hunters under this house bill for both bear and cougar.maybe ron anglin is right about how the law reads. however it reads i really don't care, i'm challenging the wording.one way or another my mission is very simlpe...i'm getting the state and federal government out of the hound hunting business for profit! no buddy system permits. if it is good enough for one it will be good enough for all. if we can't hunt our hounds than neither will you. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT!

i wished i could totally undestand the laws. at the end of the day i really do understand them as well as the state. just spin the rules to suit your own agenda. mine is very similar. you take i demand it back!

who in the state of oregon knows who your district representative is? who has sent an e-mail to them? when was the last time you were involved in any process?

straight up folks. if this was the bash the "you know what hound hunter on here show" there would be a line a mile long getting on the site and taking pot shots...why not funnel this same aggression into our sport, greg moved to idaho to enjoy his passion and is now faced with dealing with the wolves.he left some of the finest hunting in the country. just because you live in new mexico or utah or wherever, doesn't mean you aren't next. why not get involved in something constructive. do something...any thing. seems we sit around waiting like a bunch of vultures to jump on a free kill here but those same folks can't get involved in saving your own butt...you don't have to live in oregon by the way to send an e-mail to the state explaining to them this ain't right.

just as greg stated we don't a have to agree. we just need to remain civil to one another and continue to fight. i'm not giving salem the ammo it wants.....that being the dividing of all of us.all i know is this...if you own hounds i share more in common with you than i do our government. it is of our best interest to win. i keep going back to the basics, this ain't about me. it is about the future of our heritage. i'm not going to fight any hound hunter, just any one who opposes my way of life.

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