HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby Dale T » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:06 pm

Pete
explain to us how raising the quota is going to help us, when all the HSUS looks at, when it comes to the bear population are individual bears and not the over all populations and the HSUS has alraedy made it clear that if the quota gets raised they WILL put it on the ballot, and there a lot more issues out there to improve the hound hunting in this state, like getting us a training season, openning up more areas to run our hounds or to do away with the dog closure zones, I just don't see how raising the quota is going to make it better for us houndsmen and you have to remember how does this look to the general public when the HSUS potrays us as blood thirsty killers of the cute cudly bears,
Now I'm not one to back down from something I believe in
but I do know when not to poke a bear with a stick!
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby livetohunt » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:12 pm

Im not sure why the CHC wants to raise the count but thats not the point. Do you really feel that the HSUS will not push to stop bear hunting if the count stays as it is now? I dont not for one second, the HSUS want to stop all hunting in this country and they will lie cheat and still to do it. Look at this post, we are fighting with each other just like the HSUS wants. We all know that the bear population here in California is on the rise, DFG uses hunting as a way to manage that population. So here we are the bear hunters of this state and the DFG wants to use the tools they have in the right manner and we are fighting with each other about it. I dont get it we bitch about DFG not working with us, and here they are wanting to work with us and at the same time use us to help manage the growing population. I would love to have a training season but is that going to do anything to help them with the growing population? No not one bit and we all know it. I think we should all be very happy any time DFG is giving us anything and not taking things from us. Im not a guide, I have not even filled my tag in the last 9 or 10 yrs. for me its about running my dogs and treeing bears for fun and sport. I think we should all take a step back and take a long look at this post and rethink all of this fighting we are doing. Do we really want to tell DFG no we dont want to help you manage the growing Bear population? If so they might just look at how they are being managed in other states and do that here. They dont use hound hunters they us USDA trappers, they snare sows, cubs, whatever to keep the population under control. Do we really want to tell DFG thanks but no thanks.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby Redwood Coonhounds » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:15 pm

The fish and game isn't our friend and isn't wanting to help us. They know as well as we do, that if the quota issue is pushed, the HSUS is going to have it on the ballot. That's not a battle we can win. The DFG already thinks we're all poachers and outlaws, why not go ahead and truely make us that? Most of the places the bear population is growing and needs the most management, is places that are closed to hunting. Instead of uping the quota on already over hunted territory, why not open some of those places over-ran with bear for us to hunt? Makes more sense to me. Like I said, DFG doesn't really want to use us houndsmen to control the population. Makes more work for them to babysit us.

I agree we shouldn't be just laying low and just "standing our ground" but raising the quota is not making hunting ANY better for anyone thats just a houndsman. Guides, and people that kill everything they tree is the only people I see benifiting.

Like I said, we've tagged 1 bear in the last 3 years. Don't care to kill another unless I had to. What will rasing the quota do for me? Especially when it endangers my right to run my hounds. Unfortunately, I don't want to be an outlaw, if I have the choice.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby livetohunt » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:25 pm

Cassandra, it does not matter what is said your mind is made up and thats the great thing about this country we are all welcome to say as we feel. I do think we need to open more of the closed spots up for hunting but thats not open for discussion this yr so we cant change that. I dont know where you hunt but I know in most of the country I hunt in there are more bears then ever taking a few more bears out of them areas are not going to hurt anything at all. I would think would even help the other bears to have more feed and better habitat and open the gene pool up some for better breeding. I never said DFG was our friends or help us, I said " they are wanting to work with us and at the same time use us to help manage the growing population". I know how DFG feels about us houndsmen and I feel by telling them we are not interested in helping them to manage the growing population we are just adding to that black eye we have all been fighting to remove for the last few yrs. Do you know how they are managing the bear in other states where you cant run hounds? How many of you have read the info thats posted right here on this site? The facts are right there for us all to read. I for one dont want our bear population managed by the USDA with snares on cubs and sows. I like the way we have been managing them here in this state, I like to be able to control the age and sex of the bears that are taken and the only way I know for this to happen is by using hondsmen.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby RIFLEMAN » Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:48 am

Hi Lori,

I think I laid out my case fairly clearly in my initial post, but will provide a brief follow up now. However, in consideration of the utter lack of privacy that the Internet affords, I will limit my comments to two prevailing principles...

1. Science: The hunting community has the distinct advantage of typically being the more rational of the two ideologies because we support decisions that are driven by data, logic, and reason. The anti-hunting lobby lacks both legitimacy and credibility because their position stems only from emotional and anecdotal arguments. The Department uses industry-accepted best practices and scientific principles to calculate both the state's population as well as the impact that a specific level of harvest would have on the population. Based on this science, the Department has determined that increasing the quota by an additional 300 animals is not only justified, but actually well short of the 3100 bear that would need to be removed in order to influence the continued increase in population. Consider also that the black bear exhibits compensatory mortality...this means that a given percentage of animals will die annually from an accumulation of all causes. In other words, the more that are harvested by hunters, the less that will die of "natural causes."

2. Fact: The Department is tasked with managing the bear population and has done so successfully for decades; in the last 30 years, the bear population has gone from approximately 4000 to well over 40,000, and the bear distribution has not only been restored to its historic levels, but has extended into areas where no black bear had previously existed. During this time, the quota has doubled without any detriment to either the growth in population or expansion in distribution.

If neither the science nor the facts supported an increased harvest, then I would certainly not advocate such. However, because they do, logic would naturally dictate that I endorse them. Failing to do so in the face of the evidence would make us no better than the anti-hunting crowd.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby Dale T » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:05 am

Josh all this info is great, but how does raising the quota help us as houndsmen when all it does is fire up the HSUS? Bottom line is
THE DEPT. FISH AND GAME ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS and thats all there is to it! the only time that there not in hot persuit of a Houndmen some where is when they need us, just like here, with them wanting to raise the quota it's not for us it's for them so they don't have to spend so much time and resorces on deperdation.
And I can't believe that any of you would think that by working with them by raising the quota is going to make the houndmen look good in the eye's of fish and game all it's going to do is is add fuel to the fire of HSUS. I just think that there are lot of other ways to improve thing for houndsmen in this state then to raise the quota.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby RIFLEMAN » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:11 am

Lori,
Why would we want to back uping the quota, when last year Wayne Pacelli stated that he would make it his mission to get it put on the ballot to take bear hunting away in Ca. if the quota was raised?


Dale,
HSUS has alraedy made it clear that if the quota gets raised they WILL put it on the ballot,


I am unaware of any such statements made by Wayne Pacelle specifically or HSUS generally. You may be confusing his statement last year when he threatened to put bear hunting on the ballot if the Commission legalized GPS dog recovery solutions.


Something I hope you that you not only realize but that you truly consider when embracing an opposition to "rocking the boat" is that HSUS hates everything about hunting...it's not just about using GPS dog recovery solutions or harvesting 2000 bear...they are no more happy with using radio telemetry dog recovery solutions than they are with GPS dog recovery solutions, and they are no more content with harvesting 1700 bear than they are with harvesting 2000 bear. They hate the use of any equipment on any dog used for hunting of any animal because they hate all hunting. In other words, they are just as likely to attempt a ballot initiative today as they would be if the quota was 2000 bear or if GPS dog recovery solutions were legalized. These proposals are not going to tip the balance of public sentiment or condemn us any more than the regulations that exist today. The sooner you all realize this, the better off you will be.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby RIFLEMAN » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:31 am

Cassandra,

I also don't think CHC should just jump in and start advocating that the quota be raised because a select few think it's a good idea. They are supposed to be the voice of the houndsmen, and I feel they should support the majority.

1. You assume CHC is involved in this effort. What facts lead you to believe this? CHC has submitted no letter of support to the Department, issued no press release endorsing the proposals, and have attended no Commission meetings offering testimony in support of the proposals.
2. Even if CHC was involved, you assume CHC just "jumped in." What facts lead you to believe that CHC would not carefully consider the implications before being involved?
3. You assume the majority of hound hunters do not support these proposals. What facts lead you to this assumption?

The fish and game isn't our friend and isn't wanting to help us. They know as well as we do, that if the quota issue is pushed, the HSUS is going to have it on the ballot. That's not a battle we can win. The DFG already thinks we're all poachers and outlaws, why not go ahead and truely make us that?

Are you implying that this is all just a strategy or carefully orchestrated scheme crafted by the entire California Department of Fish and Game in order to instigate the Humane Society of the United States into launching a ballot initiative to ban bear hunting in California? I have heard of some conspiracy theories in my time, but this one is pretty ambitious. While we're at it, what was the name of the second shooter in Dallas, and did he hide the bodies of the aliens in his garage in Roswell? Inquiring minds want to know.

The fish and game isn't our friend and isn't wanting to help us. Like I said, DFG doesn't really want to use us houndsmen to control the population. Makes more work for them to babysit us.

What facts lead you to believe this? This is all conjecture, I'm afraid.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby RIFLEMAN » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:55 am

Dale,

Josh all this info is great, but how does raising the quota help us as houndsmen when all it does is fire up the HSUS?

These proposals aren't responsible for firing up HSUS...you owning a hound and hunting an animal is what has them fired up. Answer me this: what pro-hound hunting proposals got the antis fired up in '93 when they tried to ban hound hunting in California with SB 67 or '03 when they tried again with AB 342? Hint: There were none. They sensed that the hunting community was weakened and decided to strike. Period.

Bottom line is THE DEPT. FISH AND GAME ARE NOT OUR FRIENDS and thats all there is to it!

As I have said before, the Department is made up of more than just one person in more than just one branch. It's in our best interest to work with all parties so as to provide them with more information with which to come to a more accurate opinion of our sport. Sticking our heads in the sand or being reclusive will accomplish nothing positive, but will instead only serve to further alienate them from us...and FYI, we need them to survive.

And I can't believe that any of you would think that by working with them by raising the quota is going to make the houndmen look good in the eye's of fish and game all it's going to do is is add fuel to the fire of HSUS.

Tell me why working with DFG wouldn't improve our image with them. Logically speaking, there is nothing detrimental in partnering with the Department.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby BOSS HOG » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:27 am

Redwood Coonhounds wrote:I also do not support the quota being raised. I agree out bear population is doing just fine. But lets leave it that way. How often is the quota filled early? Not enough to warrant upping it. I'd rather as a whole, we try to change, fix, or fight about other issues. I'd rather see NEW places opened up to hunting during season (or even more training areas in the summer, or just a training season on bear), than to kill more bears out of the already over-hunted areas... I could care less if I ever kill another bear over my dogs, but I'd surely like to keep my right to hunt bear... I also don't think CHC should just jump in and start advocating that the quota be raised because a select few think it's a good idea. They are supposed to be the voice of the houndsmen, and I feel they should support the majority.




i couldent agree more
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby Redwood Coonhounds » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:28 pm

Josh,
I never said CHC was supporting the issue. I'm glad they are not. But I don't think they should jump in the future and support it. Until we as houndsmen can get along, the CHC should be neutral (which they are at the moment) I've heard from 95% of the houndsmen asked, they DO NOT SUPPORT raising the quota. If you go to many different events, or go hunting in different areas like I do, and come across lots of different houndsmen, from all walks of life, the opinion becomes pretty clear. Just because the 5 or 6 people that go to CHC meetings want it changed, doesn't make them the "dominant opinion."

Also since when isn't the DFG freinds with the HSUS? Since when wouldn't they sell us out so that it's less work for them? Why is it they accept money from HSUS, and even when we told them that if it was given back, that we'd not only match but double what they recieved from HSUS, they still declined?
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby outlaw13 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:27 am

RIFLEMAN,

I am sure that you get tired of explaining your wonderfull rebuttles to a few senseless people on this sight. You shut them down and answer there every question and it will still not be enough for them to understand that raising the quota IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION Everyone that runs hounds is to gain from this. NOT A SELECT FEW. A lot of people need to ask themselves this question. How would you feel if they were trying to lower the quota by 300 tags? wouldn't that seem like a win for the bad guys and a step in the wrong direction? If you get the ball rolling in the wrong direction it is going to be hard to stop, if you ever get it stopped. It takes baby steps and work to get what you want GPS, Training season and more areas to hunt are not going to happen over night but getting the quota raised is helping us head in that direction. WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR A FEW PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT!!!!!!!!
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby Lori Jacobs » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:16 am

Josh,
sorry to cause such a stink, but I did'nt think you would mind answering some questions beings you posted this. You stated to Casandra that you did not say anything about CHC being involved in backing this. Is that not what your post is about? It starts out by saying help the DFG.
And to answer your question about Wayne Pacelli, yes there was an article in the Sacramento Bee last year and he said that he would put it on the ballot if the quota was raised, he also said that he had won before and that he would win again. I am not sure what meeting it was at, but at one of the CHC meetings Natasha and I brought up the fact that he said that. He also said that hound hunters were no better than Michael Vick.
I am not trying to argue with anyone over this or trying to cause problems. We as hunters need to stick together or we will never be able to beat anything. I just don't see the need in raising the quota when there is such a risk involved. As far as do I think that the DFG knows what they are doing by bringing this up? You bet! I think they know exactly what they are doing. They do not like hound hunters and never will, they think we are all outlaws. Just like in there show Wild Justice, whenever it talks about bear poachers it shows a bear on a dog box. Tell me that is not singeling us out!
I have been involved in CHC for many many years and will stay involved as I cherish this sport and want to see it continue for the younger generations of my family. I am not one who trys to cause trouble I am trying to be smart and not affraid to voice my opinion. :?
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby Dale T » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:51 am

Josh
You still haven't explained to us how raising the quota is going to help us houndsmen in California, the only thing I can see coming from it is more bears being killed and houndsmen taking the shit for it, weather fish and game was the driving force or not we would be the bad guy's, I think it would be great to finally get something back as a houndsmen in this state but I don't see and know body can explain how this would make things any better for us houndsmen when you can still be in the woods with your hounds until they run us out with the dog closures long after the last Sunday in December.
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Re: HELP THE CALIFORNIA DFG HELP YOU AND DEFEAT HSUS

Postby BOSS HOG » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:29 am

if winning a court case has become more important that doing the right thing , then you have lost all perspective.
In times of tyranny and injustice, when law opresses the people, the outlaw takes his place in history....

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