True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Discuss pedigrees, post photos, and etc...
lmorgan
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby lmorgan » Fri May 28, 2010 7:36 pm

Tim,

Doesn't the Walker name pre-date even the Sr. Giles? The bluetick breed wasn't formally recognized by UKC until 1946 but we know people were calling them by that name long before then. Maybe Mike can shed some light on how far back the Walker name goes. I read an article in an old BBCHA Blue Book by Al Lynn about the origin of the Walker Cooner and it goes back farther than the UKC recognition I'm sure. Ironically, Mr. Lynn argues that the English, Bluetick and Walker "breed" is actually all one type of hound, interrelated.

Have we ever established exactly where the Rousseau country even was? Was it Pointe Coupee Parish, Orleans Parish, Lubbock TX or Kentucky?

I do see your point about the redtick coloration. However, if you'll go back through a lot of old bluetick historical photos like BBCHA publishes you'll find more than a few "blueticks" that seem to have more red spots than blue. I've often wondered about that. I wonder exactly where the redtick coloration does come from?
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pegleg
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby pegleg » Fri May 28, 2010 8:16 pm

the walker name is very old and has been scrambled some in history. i had a man tell me with a self righteousness only a dog man can posses that they where named from the man of that name who bred them in texas. and that anything else was just a open spotted dog. then why do we have refrences to the walker foxhounds linked to that walker family way before texas reached statehood? im sure some of the running guys can give a much more detailed look into this as they have always had a habit of maintaining breed records of thier packs of foxhounds as its the only reasonable way to keep track of the better producers when your running packs of that size. and all the current running hounds have been bred fromone of these documented packs with all outcrosses or line crosses documented.
the bad news is if you breed a walker with any red on the body or spots larger then trim you can and will see some blue/red english coloration and every generation after that will produce a decent number of redticks and if one superior stud happened to be redticked it wouldn't be long at all before the family showed pure red for the most part. I think a better way to determine breed heritage would be to spend the time doing computer measurements of the hounds in those old pictures to get a standard of characteristics that could be used as a measureing stick. you have to remember that the human memory is so prone to suggestion that people can fail torecognise a attacker minutes after the attack if they present a calm friendly attitude and simple clotheing change to the victim. so grandpa's recolections of hounds or horses may be swayed in a direction of personal prefrence not fact. give that a few generations and who knows what it looks like.
I think we should take what we know as fact in regards to those hounds of yesteryear's performance and grade our hounds against that. the main problem is most accounts are written years later, hearsay or self promotion. I believe most hounds today could perform there job better then their ancestors given the amount of time hunting some of those fabled hounds had. and i feel the lack of training or pursuit seasons does more to fight hound hunting of any type then anything else. if a person can only hunt a few months per year they are less likely to incur the year round expense of keeping hounds. so as the amount of sport vrs work goes down we continue to loose houndspeople and voteing power
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Fri May 28, 2010 8:38 pm

Pegleg...agreed. I think all the old history is interesting, but we could never go back and breed to any of it anyway. It is only a general idea that we might be doing something in the right direction, similar to the old lines that are lost. After that we are forging new ground in the most intelligent ways we know....and hopefully by a few like minded guys with dedication and staying power. A guy just needs some clues as to where to start, a ton of hard work, a truck load of money and some luck. If everythings lines up, then we houndsmen end up with a superior strain.

I believe Rousseau country to be the Lubbock area, as that is suposedly where he left all of his hounds when he gave them up?
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby pegleg » Fri May 28, 2010 9:04 pm

anybody live there that can search public records and the museums county history dept.?
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Sat May 29, 2010 12:20 am

There are some pretty good on line sources.
I can find the Rousseau name everywhere, but no mention of the hounds.
I think the archives of the local papers maybe the best place, but that will probably involve a long and dusty search. If anyone is willing to spend a week in those basements, something will probably turn up.

But from todays breeding standpoint, it won't make a difference anyway as the Porcelain of today is not the same dog as it was back then.
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Sat May 29, 2010 12:36 am

Lee's Arizona Blue
He's built a little different and has a different head than the other one, which looks more Walker to me, doesn't he?
Image
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby Mike Leonard » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:13 pm

The Pecos dog that Hershell Downs is holding was old Lee breeding, and actually was out of some dogs crossed from the original dogs the Lee's bought from an old sheriff down in Rodeo , New Mexico and some of Dub Evan's stock from New Mexico. The other dogs went by several names and figured prominantly in the Lee's bloodlines going forward. He was called Arizona Blue and also Florida Blue. Not for the state of Florida but for the Florida Mountains in New Mexico. This dog was picked up as a stray between Hatch and Deming on the road.No telling where he came from but I would reckon he was just some good lion stock pup that chousted a deer out of the country and got lost, and went to wandering. Very few people in those days put any kind of a name plate on their dogs and a lot didn't even put any collar on the dogs. You will not in a lot of old Lee photos that they went collarless and the lead and tie chains they had just snapped right around the dog's neck. Heck back then folks was scarce and most ranchers knew the lion hunters cutting circles in their country cuz they paid bounty. Hell in those days you could lose 50% of your calf crop to stock killing bear and lions. So if a hound straggled in they would just send word either by a phone if they had one or a general delivery or mail carrier.


This is another reason that the homing instinct was selected for and bred so strong in the old strain hound. Some of my old time dogs have it so strong that should you lose them out in the night on a track or can't get to them forget calling them or looking for them, just go directly to where you started be it horse trailer or truck and that is excactly where they will come back to and expect you to be right there. Once you learn this it will save you a lot of miles and time. Many of today's hounds have that bred plumb out of them and hell they will run around hit a road and just fog off thru the country and really be lost.

One thing about most of them old time hounds, they wasn't lost they knew excactly where they had been. You was the one that was lost. LOL!
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby MDbloodtracker » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:17 pm

Tim,
How bout an updated pic or 2 of HOSS ??? I want to see if his size has grown into that booming bawl mouth he has :)
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:28 pm

Yes he is growing into it and it is even more powerful. He is 28" tall w/29" ears and weighs 90 lbs at 10 months old. I am too busy with other things right now to get any new pics, but when the smoke clears I sure will. Thanks for asking.
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby Gary Roberson » Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:12 pm

Did Riley Miller at Justiceburg, TX end up with one of these pups?
Adios,
Gary
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby pegleg » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:48 pm

the AKC has records stating Rosseau imported frence hounds. but doesn't say where the blood went although the irish hounds brought in the 1930's is detailed much better. I guess like all working animals the paper work isn't the important part.
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:49 pm

Gary Roberson wrote:Did Riley Miller at Justiceburg, TX end up with one of these pups?
Adios,
Gary



No he did not. He bought one of the GS purebreds. Have you seen it yet?
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:51 pm

pegleg wrote:the AKC has records stating Rosseau imported frence hounds. but doesn't say where the blood went although the irish hounds brought in the 1930's is detailed much better. I guess like all working animals the paper work isn't the important part.


Pegleg, could you please post me that AKC/Rousseau link?
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby pegleg » Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:30 am

will pm
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Re: True Oldstyle Southwestern Dryground Pups

Postby liontracker » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:14 pm

Thanks, I tried to find it myself, but got lost in their site.

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