I recently made a cross between one of my male Gascon Saintongeois named Dakota and a female from Mike Leonards' Oldstrain of SW Dryground bred hounds named Lilly. (Thanks Mike for this opportunity) Lilly is out of Shortys' Hagar dog and Dan V's Big Shirley female. Hagar is Terell Shelly bred and comes from the last of the Ben Lilly dogs . Big Shirley is from Mike's oldstrain and is double bred Goswick (Big John), with Meachum,Allen and Layser blood (Toby's littermate sister) also. The Allen dogs are Ace, Amos, Booger and Gunner. This is a superior cross. My feeling, is that the GS blood will match up with the old french blood behind the Goswicks/Layser's and combined with the proven abilities of the Shelly dogs, will produce a dryground lion hound that will raise the bar several knotches. These pups should have a nose like no other and lots of speed to go with it. They should finish out at 26-28 inches and 75-95 lbs. and be super houndy. Half of the litter is booked and the rest will be sold by private treaty to hard hunting houndsmen that will hunt the hair off them. (All are sold)
As a hunter Dakota has tremendous ability. His nose is the best I have seen on a hound, wicked cold and super locate. Unfortunately the tree huggers wont give us a pursuit season. I have laid the toughest trails you can imagine for him and he puts an end to them. You should see what he can do in the heat of the day ,on a day old scent trail in the sage brush. Yeh, he has what it takes and then some.
The other morning we were out for a run. On the way home we came over the last rise and I saw a cat cross the railroad grade in front of us, heading back to the barn. There was a slight breeze coming at us and I thought "this will be good". At 400yds they struck, ran it on the wind, hit the track and turned down it and the cat never made the barn. I kid you not, these GS's have a serious nose on them.
Mike Leonard wrote:
I don't want to ad any discouragement to potential buyers of these pups but there is one thing I need to tell hunters about my side of the cross.
These dogs are not coon bred and they have zero coon dog breeding in them. They have been maintained for decades by professional big game hunters and State and Federal predator control hunters. They do not handle the same as a lot of the hounds many people are so use to dealing with these days. They are sensitive in nature and do much better after they bond with a single hunter. They are very smart but you must earn their trust and you can't just think you are going to knock them around and get them to respect you. You better be right and you better mean business if you do disipline them. They learn quickly but if you just try those hard tactics repeatedly with them you will come to a cross roads and they just might eat your ass up. I mean that . These dogs have been bred to have heart and courage and you must become the alpha in the pack and earn their respect. If you do they will lay down their life for you. If you are a lazy dog handler and rely too much on a heavy hand or electricity they will quit you.
Just thought I would clear that up because a lot of guys even professionals and outfitters I have found don't really have the time or the patience it takes for big game dogs and they are better off with coon hounds
Big Shirley
Hagar
Hagar
Ben-Lilly's littermate
Ben-Lilly's littermate
Also, Lilly's blood has withstood the test of time, about 80 yrs or so, by some of the most famous houndsmen in the SW. The main reason for this cross, is to put an extra fine nose on a package that is already topshelf.
Update: Lilly only has 11 more days to go!
What bothers me most about this internet thing is how three different people can read the same post and come up with three vastly different opinions as to what the author was actually trying to get across. So let me try to clarify.
Rareness- Dakota and the other 3 GS's I have are the only 4 in the US and the first to ever be registered with the U.K.C. GS pups of this caliber cost $700 - $1000 ea (if you can even arrange a purchase in the first place) and another $1200 - $1500 to get here. Yep, that's right - $2000 to $2500 per pup... There are only 2000 GS's in the whole world.
Breed specific ability - The GS as a breed, consistantly has the coldest nose that you will will find on a SW type frame. This breed has been intensively line bred from 3 original hounds since 1854. As a cold trailing machine, they are consistantly superior to the vast majority of US hounds. That is why they are in my kennel - nose and conformation. Little did I know they possess other very admirable traits as well, but that is another issue.
Lilly's blood - Her top side is from Terrell Shelly himself and the last of the Ben Lilly dogs. I was told that he does not sell very many pups but when he does, they cost $1500 each. On her bottom side, pups sold for $600 each 20 years ago. This oldstrain contains some of the most legendary SW dryground hounds of recent history. Both sides of her pedigree have been bred for dryground ability for longer than any of us on here have been alive.
All other things being equal, the one thing that every single dryground hunter is looking or breeding for is nose, nose and more nose. The point I was making about Dakota and the barn cat was his ability to wind at long distance. That cat was way out there, 300 to 400 yds. There was little or no breeze and he caught the scent on the thermals. That's a pretty good nose. As for Colorado and hunting seasons, yep – it sucks. So for game catching I will have to plead the fifth on the grounds that it might incriminate me. However I have run these GS’s with my coldest Camerons’ and saw incredible performance. My male Cameron is the kind that will lick sticks and rocks to make a track move. We found where a bobcat had killed a turkey, by the looks of it, two days prior. It was already 10:00 am. The Cameron male opened and started to circle, looking for the freshest track out of there. He found it and moved it out to a rock pile that had fallen from the rim. It was about noon and the temperature was in the mid 90’s. The Cameron was starting to have trouble now between the heat and the loss of scent. The GS’s had been honoring and working with the Camerons the whole time, but at this point they started to push ahead. In just a few minutes they took over the track and went on to make a jump. All of a sudden the “Golden” Cameron was playing catch up... At mid afternoon they had the bobcat up a tree. Yes they do tree…and just how I like it, not 130 barks per minute tree crazed, but steady and never taking their eyes off the cat. They stand on the wood and sit back and bawl. I have no doubt in my mind that we would not have caught that cat without the GS’s. I am amazed by their heat tolerance and tough feet.
In a nut shell, both sides of this cross certainly are, from “Proven” Big Game Hounds.
Both parents are hunters. To say these pups won't hunt, is like saying that new car you just bought won't start... These pups have all the odds stacked in their favor. This cross was not meant for the average guy with hounds. This cross was made specifically for the dryground houndsman who is looking to push the envelope.
As to the ped, yes I can post them, but without a lengthy explaination I doubt you will be able to tell much. The hunting ability of the ancestors is not on the peds. However I found the field trial results. This is a very involved question that took me 18 months of intensive research to digest. I just simply am not able to sum it up in a couple of handy dandy paragraphs. This really should be discussed under Liontrackers Gascon Saintongeois, so I don't have to keep repeating it. When I get a large block of time I will post an answer to this question there.
What type of game? I actually have two pair of GS and they are from two different pairs. So the parents and sibs to mine are in Africa and are being used on Leopard, Serval and Carracal. The grand parents are in Europe and are used on Boar, Stag and Hare. It don't think there is tree game there.
Hunt? All the different ways we do here. No snow, all bare ground. Where the GS shines is on 12-16 hour old Boar tracks from the day before and on very old Hare tracks.
Climate and Habitat? Hot and dry, very rocky. But it depends on the location within the country. Some mountains.
Size? Males 28 1/2"- 75-85 lbs and females 27"- 65-75lbs.
Open on track? VERY open on track.
SW hunting type? Rangy, deep/narrow chested, very high heat tolerance, very tough feet, huge endurance and extreme perseverence on a cold track.
Coldest nosed of the French hounds? Personal communication on French hunting sites and written records. Breeders in Europe are now using the GS as crosses to improve nose. Particular excerpts will take a little time to dig back up. But also a long time european houndsman that recently moved to the US found out I have the GS's and he said "don't let any one tell you different, the GS has the coldest nose on planet earth." It is common knowledge in Europe.
Houndswoman wrote:
We sincerely hope you know something that we don't know.
Not me so much as the French. If you think about it, foundation wise, nose didn't come from the foxhounds, but from the fine French hounds.
Quote:
i am curious as to why you made the cross you did. if you have these awesome blues you are into then why not keep improving on these lines???
Well let's see here, Vauhgn bred his for how many years, and Sebastion for how many, and Harry O. Smith for how many, and Del Cameron for how many? Somebody help me out here, since I don't know what I think I know, but that is a t-r-u-c-k-l-o-a-d of years.....how many more years would it take to produce an overall average of the litter pup that could finish the tracks that mine can't?
I aint no violin maker , and I sure as hell aint building no church here. This old man aint gonna live that long. But I aint burning no bridges , nethier.
So along comes this other breed of hound, from an expert Leopard hunter in Africa, with a nose of two different bloodhouds crossed to a warhound large Greyhound, Crossed to a Big Blue......
Now my rock lickin, stick licken, super cold nosed blue,....aint so cold no more....
It's like I said the first time I logged onto this site...........I don't care if they are Pink with purple Freekin polka dots......If it can out trail my BEST hound... where do I sign??????????? THAT'S WHY
It's like the man said.....Take it or leave it..................
Dakota's Littermates in Africa:
TNT Wrote:
Hey liontracker, those caracal dont impress me much, ran 'em and an average house cat holds his cool longer and gives a better race..... NOW that serval my friend, he does a twisty dance just like our big footed lynx if jumped in thick cover and it takes serious dog power to pressure and tree them in that dry African enviroment with any consistancy! Them buggers when started in a maze (corn) field or down on dry grassy creek beds where they prowl for birds....now man that is a fine race to listen to and my hats off to any hound or breed of dog that can put that spotty little bugger up a limb with any regularity!
Hope Gavins doing well and having success.........
Here are some of the males at 7 weeks old.
