Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

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Wardog
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Wardog » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:35 am

Some of the best dog posts I have read...thanks for taking the time.

I agree that coon hound competition has created a dog that hunts hard and fast and looking for a track that will put a coon in a tree quickly...so after a short while the majority of hounds will evolve towards that type of dog...

I like a medium nose on a dog and have bred that type of dog...I also train my dogs to use their winding ability to their maximum potential as well as for trailing. I also like dogs that loop 3 or 4 hundred yards to each side of me and around me as I slowly move along in my wheeler. If I see a dog or two pick their noses up to the wind I stop and see where the wind is coming from and sometimes it could be channeling...I then make a mental note as possible location of game and I then walk in that direction and encourage the dogs to follow the wind currents...once they get a better drift of the wind currents the dogs will go sometimes a mile and jump or catch the game...
If I see the dogs trying to work a track I stop and give them all the time they need to line it out or give it up...sometimes I will help them to work a track...for me it is all about the dogs which includes me bringing out the best from them...

I also know someone who has had dogs bred like mine...he hunts in a hurry because he keeps 2 jobs and when he unloads he moves quickly on his wheeler...his dogs hunt for hotter tracks and don't wind game much unless it is close by...

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Nolte
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Nolte » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:24 pm

I have to agree with dhostetler and others. All good points. One thing that has happened is that happened with decent bear populations and trail cameras is we've had many more hot tracks to run our dogs on. And if that is what you run the majority of the time you'll never develop dogs that can cold trail because they've never had to learn. They need to have the right stuff for sure but equal parts is being tested. Throw on junky old tracks or ones with a lot of trash and give em a chance. It might be futile but that's ok keep at it. You might find that 1 in your pack shows some potential. And even if they don't it still shows you something valuable. And that is that you don't have a of with the right make up in the pack.

Dogs that can cold trail can always run hotter tracks but hotter nosed dogs won't be able run cold trails. And if you don't have one you can still have some success by trying what you can to freshen up the track for them. And even if that's all you got they can help you bridge that gap by showing a young dog what it should run via a hot track and then seeing if that you dog can work into a trailer when given a chance after it knows what it should be chasing.

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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby johnadamhunter » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:58 pm

I am reading an ebook, "Lion Tales" by Jonathan Kibler. There are over 200 pages about cold trailing with hounds. Tho it's tooooo much cold trailing for me, I have learned a great deal about scenting conditions, scents, and dogs that will trail on dry ground. If your truly interested in learning more about cold trails and cold noses, it's a pretty good read.
John


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Mike Leonard
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:19 am

johnadamhunter,


Much can be gleaned from Jon's book that is for sure. Too bad it is out of print and hard to find on used shelves. If you are really wanting one it is good to keep looking as some of Jon's content pisses a lot of hunters off and they end up dumping the book. He is a pretty straight talking guy and doesn't mince words so it can bruise some feeling. I know at one stage of my hunting career I would have tossed it in file 13, but the longer I hunt in the southwest I see that old Jon riding around on that long eared mule got some genuine flashes of light now and then.

I recall riding down Bear Canyon in the Little Burro Mtn. in southwest New Mexico one day. My partner and I had a pretty good pack of lion hound back then most out of famous southwest bloodlines and they had been on a pretty good bunch of lions. Several days in succession before this circle we had been in that country and although we had seen some old lion sign, and even hit a few scrapes the dogs could light up on just a little, we hadn't got anything going. Well this day a rancher friend from over by Brushy Mountain had let us take an old black dog he had along for some exercise. Now this dog was getting up in age and was a pretty big dog and looked a little soft, so I figured in a few hours he would be trailing our saddle animals up and would be lucky to make it back to the truck and trailer.

Our dogs were casting around looking all business like and here comes this old black dog thru the middle of them drops his head and lets out a bawl that just about blew us out of the saddle. The other dogs jumped looked around and ran to him and then stopped and looked around at each other and at us as if to say., don't shock us, we ain't doing anything!

Well I bails out of the saddle and runs over there to look, and right there sure enough is a lion track and this old dog is popping his nose and walking it out. He left the wash bed went up a little header then took it under the rim for about 200 yards, and then took it over a low saddle and into another arm of the canyon drainage. Not another dog made a sound. We trotted around the point and found him crossing the was on the other side still moving at a walk, but steady. Now here is where it gets interesting.

In the next bend of the canyon he takes this track right thru a place we had ridden the dogs over the day before, and here is one of the places the dogs had opened up a bit on a scrape, but never trailed out. this dog trails right down thru the scrape and dog and horse tracks, circles around a bit picks it up off some high brush moves it up the side 50 yards or so, and then just pulled out now at a trot.

We looked at each other and got down to see if the lion had come back by that night but no new scrape and no tracks that we could see on the sign we left the day before.

In a little bit several other of the older hound started getting in on the track and opening some, but not very good. I would like to say we caught this lion but we didn't. The wind came up about 11 and by noon or so we had to hold our hats on our heads and we finally headed the dogs off and called it.

Since that time I know I have ridden over a lot of trailable lion tracks even when you think you might have the best cold trailer in the country it still leaves a question in my mind.

How many lions would I have started if I had old Buddy along today?
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Bear hounder » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:09 pm

I like the post about the movie. That is the best dog I ever owned and I've never taught him a thing . And I have experienced that aswell to be true their are some natural born hunters once in a while but their are a lot of people around hear that try that aproch and aperntly it does not always work because most of them have dogs that still don't know a dam thing and they don't catch game but they chase it so to me I see the truth that bear dogs are born not trained for shure I can't make a dog hunt and I can't train him to have courage he is brave or not Butt that being said my dogs are my friends they want to hunt what I'm hunting and if I can proof to them what I want they will do their very best to get it I eill shair a storey that proves when I learn to listen so do my dogs lol I had a proplem with my dogs treeing the od coon or fisher here and their and apon talking to a very good hounds men named Lance who has been running hounds for longer than I been walking on the earth he told me when you get to a bat and you know that there was a bear their and your dogs tree a coon don't let them away with it make them find that bear he said they need to find that bear so I said well I don't let my dogs away with it I give them a scolding at the tree and I own alpha collers so I use them to say it plightly at the bottom of a coon tree so I'm not tetting my dogs away with it and old Lance said well do they go get the bear track after you get done the education program. I said no I put them back in the truck and go to the next bait . He said that is Your mistake you need to make them find that bear . So I thought Lance was nuts how would putting the dogs back out on the same bait they just trashed off of was I saposta take my leads and put poles on them so I could push the hounds threw the woods on the right track or what ? I was baffled so but I had an idea that Lance was right and I was rong so I decided to listen and try the way I was trying was not working I had nothing to loose . So the day came when we treed another coon they went only about 125 yards from the bait then treed I walked down in their and spanked all the dogs that were present about 4 or 5 dogs they headed back to the truck and dropped their heads they knew they had done somthing rong I was still heading back up the hill foaming at the mouth tripping over brush in a rat hole that only a coon could enjoy when I heard old jim slam the tailgate on the truck . Then I remembered what old Lance told me put them back out make them find the bear so I called old jim on the radio I said jim turn them dogs back out . He says what like are u nuts . Then I heard the tailgate drop again this time the dogs go screaming to the other side of the truck and tree 450 yards so I head in to the tree now I'm grumbling and foaming at the mouth and I'm thinking how to fix these hounds thinking they had treed another coon I got into the tree and to my delight their was a nice bear in the tree the part that struck me was that bear was over the hill listing to me and my hounds tree a coon and spanked my dogs and never moved out away from that bait even the bear knows that I would only be at the bait a while before I would load the dogs up and go to the next bait if the bear could pattern me I'm shure that my hounds pattern me aswell I think old Lance was right on u got to make them dogs find that bear and I'm shure it will be the same for cold trailing yes I need natural ability dogs but I also need to communicate to the dogs what I want them and I know my hounds they will do anything for me time will tell but again I say thank you to all the old Lance kinda guys on hear the next generation of hounds men can only learn from our elders while they are here thanks for putting up with my questions and hard headed thoughts and ideas

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Nolte
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Re: RE: Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Nolte » Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:24 pm

Mike Leonard wrote:How many lions would I have started if I had old Buddy along today?


Well from my experience the answer is always at least 1 more than we did. :lol: granted we might not catch it but I'd rather be trailing something versus looking for something to trail. Especially if that trail is something a guy should really spend sometime going after.

I've had quite a few of those moments as well where my ego was knocked down a peg or 10. A slice of humble pie is good for a guy. And you really never know how good one is vs another until they hunt side by side like that. I've also learned to not judge the ability by appearance. Seen some mutley looking dogs makes fools of some other dogs that would win bench shows.



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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Mike Leonard » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:16 pm

Nolte,

That is for sure! LOL!

I have a female walker dog here that is pretty dang sorry to look at when you first see her. She is sort of crook legged in back, sniped nosed and has those spooky yellow green eyes and when she looks at you head on it makes you think of a Siamese cat. But holy smokes what a track dog! WOW! out of this world fast and accurate and it doesn't have to be red hot either. Watching her at a distance going thru the bluffs at times my finger has been on the button cuz I just knew she must have jumped a coyote to be going that fast with no over runs and seldom a loss.

She looks a lot better then. LOL!
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby 1bludawg » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:54 pm

If you've been at this game very long there will probably be times you think you've got a really good hound UNTIL you hunt with a better one ! The truth is you may have a good one but there's a better one out there somewhere .That's why i'm always looking for that great one !
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby 1whitedog » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:28 pm

Some great information. I would agree, they are still out there. The truth is that demand is alot higher than supply. I can count the number of super cold nosed trail dogs that I would vouch for on my two hands and as stated by others most people that say they have one are full of bs or have not hunted the dog side by side with a great one. I have only seen two 30 hour old tracks started. They were both on Monday morning from a Saturday night track. Both were under near ideal tracking conditions, went into areas protected from the weather and did not trail a half mile before jumping. I will list some experiences and examples of why I prefer cold nosed hounds. 1) nose is relative. An example, if dog A can take a 10 hour old track and dog B can take a 5 hour old track in good condition then in bad condition if dog A can take a two hour old track dog B can take a 1 hour old track or a lot less. No matter how you cut it, dog A provides more opportunity. I have been really amazed at how hot a track a medium nosed dog can't take under bad trailing conditions 2) cold nosed dogs often can trail after a heavy rain. There are alot of days that we hunt when most are sitting at home because all the tracks were washed away over night or by an AM rain. I would credit this not only to nose power but also there experience in grubbing tracks. Especially if game stay in thick cover where the bottom of the brush will hold the scent.3) a few years back alot of our bears were crossing a road and going into a recently burned area. There were many mornings where this separate the trail dogs from the others. With all this being said the bear populations are high in the east (wv,va,nc) and you can tree plenty of bear with hotnosed dogs, just know that you are going to miss some and if things get dry or thin your season will end a little earlier. No big deal for some. Hot nosed dogs definitely have there place, in the summer we prefer to rig a hot nosed dog because we hunt after work and want a track we can dump everything on, get to the tree and home to bed for work the next day. One other thought, when I was young I would never catch my dogs off a track but as I have hunted with some men that catch there start dogs off at roads and I know how easy it is to lose one to a bad bear, l will catch mine depending on the situation. I have seen no bad effect from catching a good start dog off at the road if he is a experienced hound. Disclaimer the east is not exactly the dessert but these are my thoughts.
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Re: RE: Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Bear hounder » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:48 pm

1whitedog wrote:Some great information. I would agree, they are still out there. The truth is that demand is alot higher than supply. I can count the number of super cold nosed trail dogs that I would vouch for on my two hands and as stated by others most people that say they have one are full of bs or have not hunted the dog side by side with a great one. I have only seen two 30 hour old tracks started. They were both on Monday morning from a Saturday night track. Both were under near ideal tracking conditions, went into areas protected from the weather and did not trail a half mile before jumping. I will list some experiences and examples of why I prefer cold nosed hounds. 1) nose is relative. An example, if dog A can take a 10 hour old track and dog B can take a 5 hour old track in good condition then in bad condition if dog A can take a two hour old track dog B can take a 1 hour old track or a lot less. No matter how you cut it, dog A provides more opportunity. I have been really amazed at how hot a track a medium nosed dog can't take under bad trailing conditions 2) cold nosed dogs often can trail after a heavy rain. There are alot of days that we hunt when most are sitting at home because all the tracks were washed away over night or by an AM rain. I would credit this not only to nose power but also there experience in grubbing tracks. Especially if game stay in thick cover where the bottom of the brush will hold the scent.3) a few years back alot of our bears were crossing a road and going into a recently burned area. There were many mornings where this separate the trail dogs from the others. With all this being said the bear populations are high in the east (wv,va,nc) and you can tree plenty of bear with hotnosed dogs, just know that you are going to miss some and if things get dry or thin your season will end a little earlier. No big deal for some. Hot nosed dogs definitely have there place, in the summer we prefer to rig a hot nosed dog because we hunt after work and want a track we can dump everything on, get to the tree and home to bed for work the next day. One other thought, when I was young I would never catch my dogs off a track but as I have hunted with some men that catch there start dogs off at roads and I know how easy it is to lose one to a bad bear, l will catch mine depending on the situation. I have seen no bad effect from catching a good start dog off at the road if he is a experienced hound. Disclaimer the east is not exactly the dessert but these are my thoughts.

I don't understand if you said the track was from saterday night and it was 30 hrs old on monday morning ok I'm with the story so far how did the bear only go half a mile in thirty hrs like was this a track that u saw cross the rd on saterday night or are we talking of a bait because to me if I understand cold trailing a bear that was gone threw 30 hrs would be in the next township unless he was just hanging out behind the bait in an area or block of timber with bait near by as bears are known to do it is nice to have a good dog like that for shure butt how does that add up to cold trailing if it was only a mile from the bait I guess it all comes down to definitions I guess? I'm not trying to be funny I just thought that a cold nosed dog was famous for starting old tracks and trailing them fir long distance and what are perfect trailing conditions I hear that term alot some guys say well my hounds can take a 24 hr track when the conditions are right others say under the right conditions a blood hound can track a man on dry ground 36 hrs old well what makes the right conditions

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Nolte » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:40 am

Bear hounder wrote:I just thought that a cold nosed dog was famous for starting old tracks and trailing them fir long distance and what are perfect trailing conditions I hear that term alot some guys say well my hounds can take a 24 hr track when the conditions are right others say under the right conditions a blood hound can track a man on dry ground 36 hrs old well what makes the right.


This is the 100 dollar question. The right conditions are the ones that allow the dog to take the track. I wish I could give you an exact temp and humidity but I can't. Seems sometimes they can really move old tracks and others they can't. It seems to be moderate Temps with little wind and a stable weather pattern. A little bit of moisture in the ground but not too wet. And a little less humidity and dew. How good the track goes depends on where the track goes too. Open cutoffs that are wind and sun exposwd aren't as good as shade covered brush.

As for distance, bears can cover miles and miles or not leave a square block in a week. Depends on food, water and pressure. Regardless distance is the enemy of any track. The further it goes the more chances the critter has to do something that the dogs can't figure out.
At some point on an old track you gotta catch a break to get it up and going. Cut it ahead and close the distance or see it pop out in the last block right before the dogs are stuck and would have given up.

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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Goose » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:00 pm

I've been following this and have re read it several times and have done other research as well...

Here's a question I have for y'all, do y'all think it's more of a desire to figure out a hard cold track than actually being cold nosed, yes being genetically equipped for a job makes things way easier but I've read several articles about search and rescue dogs, primarily Labrador retrievers coming onto a scene sometimes 48 hours later and lead searchers to the person, I even read an article where a little girl had gone missing in a neighborhood and investigators had exhausted all efforts in finding her, the case went on for several months and finally as one last shot a golden retriever was brought in and worked all throughout this neighborhood leading searchers through just about every single yard and playground that the little girl used to frequently visit or play in, this dog eventually lead them to an abandoned shed where the girls remains were found, how is that explainable, I know that certain breeds and lines have more olfactory nerves than others and that plays a great role in how "cold nosed" a dog is but I can't help but wonder how much of it's brains and a dogs desire to want to figure the problem (track) out...


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Re: RE: Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby Nolte » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:01 pm

I honestly think it's both drive and genetic gifts, with more emphasis on genetic gifts. I've had and seen some dogs that would almost kill them selves to try to catch a critter. They would try and try and work their butts off, but you know what. They just couldn't smell it no matter how much they worked. Then old blue would just come saunter in there and walk right out with the track like it was nothing. It's maddening at times.

I've seen some dogs that really didn't want to catch they were just happy to trail. In some cases they worked out great because you could let them do their thing and then get more dogs with them once it heated up. You might ask why keep dogs like that, the best answer is that if their the only one that can smell old tracks you don't really have a choice if you want the ability to run old tracks. A lot of the old time hunters around here have stories about these types if dogs. Wicked cold but lacked in nearly every other attribute.

As for the other situation with dogs finding people or remains. In some cases they aren't trailing the track but instead scenting the actual person or remains. They just instinctively scent and check and pick up that faint smell of what they are looking for. It happens with tracks too. The dogs get stuck in a spot and a dog will circle out and wind right to the actual critter. Tracks can go from blown up with no hope to the race is on in just an instant.



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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby david » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:58 pm

Interesting posts.

As far as the dog being able to go the places the girl had frequented, I have been forced to think about that with a dog I have now. I really beleive that when he gets in an area where a cat lives and frequents, he just gets overwhelmed with cat scent. He would be the best trapping tool a trapper of new areas could ever have. I have been forced to theorize that there are solid objects that grab scent and hold it, or solids that are sloughed off the animal (like hair, skin, dander, salt, feces, whatever) that do not dissipate as normal scent molecules seem to. They stay in the area and they tell some animals like some dogs that there is an animal frequenting this area and so go on red alert. You see it in rig dogs too when they are getting sleepy and lazy and you come into an area where you know a cat has worked in the past, and the dogs wake up and start straining for fresh scent. They already know something about the area because they can smell these solids that never leave.

Just a theory. But it might explain part of what you said about the lost girl, and Nolte explained the rest of it by scent emenating from the girl once he got close enough or in the correct position down wind.

I recently saw a show stating something like Jackals can sense a lion kill a mile away. I would think rotting human flesh would be just as powerful.
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Re: Cold nose ? Fact or fiction

Postby rockytrails » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:42 pm

A book, Hunting by Scent, by H M Budgett, is very interesting. Studies in the 1930's book written in the 50's, I think. Used bloodhounds under staged conditions. Highly recommended reading. May be hard to find.

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