Illegal outfitting

[longtailrunner]

Just curious how many of you guys are having problems with illegal outfitters in your area and how you feel about it.Here in my part of Colorado the problem is worse than I've ever seen.

[Coloradobawl]

what part of colorado?

[longtailrunner]

Front Range

[FullCryHounds]

Never had any problems and I hunt the front range a lot. The only time we hear anything is usually from the outfitters that can't seem to book enough clients of thier own, so they blame it on illegal outfitting.

[johnnie hamilton]

Dean,
You are lucky to not have any. Outfitters around Canon City to Salida have had a lot of out of state hunters that show up run hunters for 1 to 2 months and say it is all just friends. They did get in trouble last year when a local rancher caught them trespassing.

We have also had problems with legal outfitters going on private property without permission. I heard one of them got caught coming out of stateland last week.

Thank goodness I hunt 90 percent private land and do not worry about anybody.

[FullCryHounds]

Hey Johnny, how you been? Sent you a PM.

[Colohunter]

The cost of running hounds is huge so I think it happens more than most believe. Who can blame a guy for putting a few bucks in his pocket. Of bigger concern to me is that I believe the illegal outfitting also leads to higher female harvest numbers. The female harvest numbers will be the main amunition used against us when the anti hound crowd comes to take away our hound hunting. Nobody thought we could lose bear hunting but it happened. On occasion a female must be harvested due to livestock and human conflic, but if we all can do whats possible to keep the recreational hunters from harvesting females it will go along ways to help our cause when the time comes. Most of the illegal outfitting around here isnt outright but rather a guy taking his lawyer, auto mechanic, ect out on a hunt in exchange for services and this is hard to prove. You can usually tell when every time out you see another houndsman with a different guy in his truck every time. The guys that illegal outfit out right usually gets caught sooner than latter. The legal outfitter that has gone through the expense of doing things right also loses out to the illegal crowd. As far as legal outfitters not being able to sell hunts I dont buy it. I dont sell any lion hunts as I dont have any forest service leases and my private ground isnt large enough but I still get tons of people wanting to buy lion hunts. I could easly book as many lion hunts as I wanted if I had the forest service leases. The illegal outfitter also cause units to close sooner than they would other wise, robbing sportsmen and legal outfitters of full use of the forest service land. With all that being said I havent personally seen any of it this year but Ive spent more time on private than in years past. Just my two cents worth.

[JayF]

so if i go lion hunting have a tag of my own and i own all the dogs and hunting equipment. but take another person that has there own tag but no dogs or equipment and they harvest a cat. would that be illegal outfitting even if there is no charge? if so i guess it would be ok if the harvesting person owned just one dog. just interested i cant even find my own cat.

[Shorty]

I always found it to be a crock of crap that I couldn't let a friend pay for fuel. I've taken friends hunting and fishing in the past, who wanted to pay their share of the trip. That would include fuel, food, drinks, bait and so on. If I allowed it I would be illegally guiding. Even though it was just a couple buddies out hunting together. I think this is BS. Now I know there are people getting paid under the table also, I don't agree with that either. Just wish people would try making a living honestly. Then this wouldn't be a problem. However as long as we live someone will be trying to cheat the system. Which in turn will make it tougher on the people trying to do things honestly.

[FullCryHounds]

For some reason, the DOW has a different standard for houndsmen then they do other hunters. Out of state deer and elk hunters that come into the state with a couple of thier buddies always share the cost of the trip with whoever drives. They help pay for gas and other expenses. So why isn't that driver cited for illegal outfitting? Never happens. That apparently is OK. Ever had one of your buddies come from out of state to hunt deer or elk with you and they pay for a tank of gas while you drive them around all week? That type of deal was never the intent of the law but that is the way some in the DOW interpret it.

[Dale T]

Things seem to always get ugly when there a dollar involved!

[bearcat]

I agree with Dean, if I have a friend that wants to come along hunting and possibly shoot something, they should be able to pay for gas if they want to. There is illegal outfitting that goes on, but personally I believe that 90% of it is started as sour grapes from hunters that are to lazy to put the effort required into going out and actually catching something theirselves or legal outfitters that think they should be the only ones allowed to hunt in their area. Once one of these rumors is started it travels about 10 times faster than the truth. In my area most of the females killed are by legal outfitters, and then they complain and don't want anybody else hunting in their area because they might kill a $5000 lion that they could have had a client shoot. Not all outfitters are this way, I know some who are conservation minded and not possessive pricks, and have even worked for them. I also know of at least one who has so ticked off the local hunters by shooting anything that will climb a tree (and trying to run the other houndmen out of his area). That the local hunters, even the ones who used to work for him, will take anybody in town willing to buy a lion tag hunting at no cost, and kill every lion they can find just so the outfitter doesn't get the chance to. Those are the sort of pissing matches that hurt the lion population and help nobody.

[wyoutfitter]

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding between the MAJORITY of outfitters and the MAJORITY of local hunters within a state. There will always be the residents who will do everything they can to compete with and try to ruin the lives of outfitters, having no respect for a person just trying to make a living. And there will always be legal outfitters with no moral respect for big game populations, outdoor ethics, and other hunters in the woods. I can understand what some of you are talking about, I know outfitters who think they OWN the woods they hunt, and completely disrespect not only the average guy wanting to hunt on his own, but also the game in the area, all they care about is collecting a check. I am an outfitter myself, have been for a long time, and I think there is a lot of people who don't realize that MOST outfitters are some of the most ethical people in the woods, and some of the biggest contributors, to wildlife conservation, and outdoor recreation today.
Outfitting is my livelyhood, it's how I put food on the table, feed my hounds, and pay my mortgage. If I overhunt my area, violate game and fish laws, disrespect the public, and/or create a bad name for myself by doing something stupid, I'm no longer in business. Word of mouth is 80% of my business. You HAVE to play by the rules, and get along with the public, game and fish, and goverment agencies,(forest, blm, etc...)

Even though we are much more concerned with the type of illegal outfitting where someone takes 4 or 5 elk hunters, for example, and charges them half of what a legal outfitter would charge, bad mouth over-priced outfits, and pocket the green, illegal outfitting takes many shapes, as you guys have mentioned. We pay THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars every year for licensing, forest and BLM permits, game and fish fees, camp site fees, huge insurance fees, state outfitters association fees, and so on.... not to mention the respective forest agencies get a percentage of everything we earn! So you can imagine why outfitters get upset when people who have to pay none of these fees, are taking guys out illegaly and accepting money. Don't get me wrong... If someone wants to take a buddy hunting, and he/she wants to pay their way and help with fuel, lunches or whatever, great! But let them handle that on their own, don't accept any payments, or checks made out to you. That's when it becomes illegal outfitting. There is nothing wrong with a couple guys going out on a hunting trip and splitting expenses.

I apologize for people having problems with illegal, or unethical outfitters, it gives us all a bad name, sportsmen in general. Anyway...... I've just been reading this post for a while and thought I would write what was on my mind. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone by giving my two cents.

[Yard Dog]

[B-N-Trees]

wyoutfitter, that was a well put two cents. It take sportsmen and houndsmen of all kinds to ensure the future of our hunting heritage. What is really at the root of this is individuals who are dishonesty and greedy, and you are going to have to go a whole lot deeper into society to fix those problems.