TOM LIONS NOT SCRAPING,WHAT'S UP?

[pegleg]

It does seem so. Same with javelina some lions really hammer them and others seem to not touch them. I did get quite the ear full from a federal wildlife officer. Can't say I agree but it made me wonder if it was classroom regurgitation or based on any actual experience. I'm betting the former. But he did say something about cats that bothered me a little. I'm going to try verifying it before I spread rumors.

[dirtydan]

I recently stumbled upon some media that can put some questions to rest that have been lingering for a lifetime and possibly more. If one of you smart fellas would be so kind to go to youtube and put a link on to this forum for everyone to see. In the search section of youtube search the phrase cougar making scrape. Also the phrase scrape and yowl. And also the phrase mountain lion screaming. Thanks to the technology of video taking trail cameras we can understand things about lions we would have never been able to witness

[FITZH2O]

Here you go DirtyDan...

Cougar Making Scrape


Scrape and Yawl


Mountain Lion Screaming

[dirtydan]

Thank you FITZH20. I feel these videos and many others posted on that site are a tremendous breakthrough in understanding lions and their behavior.

[pegleg]

I've always maintained lions scream but have had others swear they didn't.oddly my learning they did had nothing to do with hunting them. I was fishing and just happened to be in the right spot to see it. But they can be pretty vocal.

[dirtydan]

I learned that lions scream on accident as well. I saw it firsthand while i was bedded down in a firecamp. I was woke up by a lion screaming. She was sitting on her ass like a dog and really givin it hell for about three minutes. About five minutes later two sub adult kittens stroll up and all three of them jump in the dumpster and chow down on garbage. Lions do scream. Lions damn sure scavenge and now I can confirm my assumptions that lions scrape with their hindfeet and that it is the male lions doing it and that females do routinely check these scrape sights. Also very interesting to see some other videos on there of foxes coyotes ringtails and other critters all marking on these lion markers. Makes me curious how many foxes i've sicked my dogs on!

[david]

Thank you for the links. Fascinating. It sure settles some age old debates. I know I have heard since childhood they don't scream.

The scream reminded me of something we heard predator calling at night when I was a kid. Never have figured out what that was, but it sounded very close and we couldn't see it. We packed up and left, both of us trying to keep our pants dry.

They sure are cats. Right down to the little foot shake. It's not that hard to squint your eyes (and ears) and imagine them as big barn cats.

I would think if a guy had a recording of that female in heat on his game caller it might call a Tom, in the right place at the right time. She called, waited awhile, and moved on, just like predator callers do.

There also is a video of a bobcat marking a bear rub. Sure raises Some questions. Like: why? Would a bobcat marker trigger a bear? Would the fox marker trigger a lion into marking? Is there some common chemical ingredient in all these markings? And is that why bobcat dogs sometimes seem to rig a non-cat and check themselves once they can get down and check it out more closely? Did Daniel Boone have the answers to these questions?

[CRA]

[david]

It almost paints a picture of all the different predators out there communicating with each other.
That is a picture I had not seen.

(Or is it simply a "chemical reaction")

[CRA]

Here's a lion making a scrape and later a farm shepard/cur dog and fox checking it out. I couldn't tell if the fox marked the lion scrape with urine or not???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB1htN9dYnE

[david]

Wow. The fox showed three actions or reflexes: digging(scraping with front feet?) rolling(the shoulder dip) and the fox squated much the same as the lion did after making his marks.
Amazing footage.

(Do canines have scent glands in their shoulders? Looks like his shoulder actually went to the ground before he squatted)

So OK, does a bobcat use his hind feet also? Maybe the domestic cat has done me a disservice on this one. Because every time I see bobcat feces on or near a scrape, I always invisioned them pawing the ground with front paws as I had seen domestic cats do so many times. ???

[dirtydan]

David there are also videos of bobcats scraping with their hind feet on that site. It seems like no matter what goes by a lion marker it wants to mark it also and that includes my hounds. I watch them piss on them frequently as well as we trail past them.

[houndogger]

Pine martins mark on our lion scratches here. Real pain in the ass lol.

[dirtydan]

David, i dont believe the housecat has done you disservice when it comes to toilet behavior. Most of our observations of house cats are happening in the litterbox. When it comes to big cats i still believe they bury their dung using their front feet just as a housecat does in the litterbox. I have a dog that will locate these buried lion toilets and eat the dung. Recently she dug one up and it had lots and lots of dung from fresh to pearly white old dung. This cat obviously comes through this saddle and takes a chit in the same toilet every time its around the area. This toilet is completely concealed and buried. i assume its using its front feet to dig and bury dung. On to the second toilet i know of....this one is totally above ground well used but no sign at all of that lion attempting to bury or conceal it. The third toilet i'll talk about is a mix of both. In toilet number one the dung was completely buried and the pine litter smoothed back over to conceal it. In this one the dung is deposited on toilet and dirt and leaf litter are pulled from around toilet and mixed with dung making a huge mound of dung, dirt and leaves all piled up about two feet by two feet by the height of my boots. There are no scrapes in the immediate area of these toilets. I am convinced that territorial scraping and dung deposit scraping are two totally different behaviors in which the lion digs in the ground with its feet. I will purchase some video capable cameras to place on these toilets to try to catch some footage of front foot scraping to bury dung. I have seen housecats do both territorial scraping with hind feet and bury excrement with its front feet. This combined with the first and third toilets described leads me to believe they scrape with their back feet and bury excrement with their front feet. Now the dung depositing behaviors of lions has always interested me. I have seen dung deposited on rocks obviously left as a marker. It took skill to land those turds on that tall pointy rock! There is also a tom behind my house that leaves dung in lots of his scrapes. So i believe dung is left on rocks and at scrapes as territorial marking behavior. Then I have seen it in toilets. How long do you think they are willing to hold it and how far will they travel just to use a toilet? I have seen it unburied and all alone not associated with a toilet or scrape.i picture it like it was a quick take a dump and keep walking like i do when i hunt. If i'm near camp i bury it but if i'm chasin a bugling bull down and gotta go i just dump and run!

[pegleg]

And hench forth he was known as dirty Dan famous for the "Dirty Dan Dump n Run" sorry my mind wonders sometimes.