Matthes Lion Hounds
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- Open Mouth
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Matthes Lion Hounds
I had posted this on another thread. I was hoping there would be more discussion on it .. maybe not enough people had seen it. Here a pedigree of Steve Matthes's hounds
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.
Henry David Thoreau
Henry David Thoreau
Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
That is pretty cool right there Von. Do you or anyone have any pic's of what these hounds look like? After reading this I would really like to see some.
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.
Henry David Thoreau
Henry David Thoreau
Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
I wonder if anybody that is still running a good percentage of his blood is on the site? They sound like good looking dogs as I am a sucker for red dogs.
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- Open Mouth
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
There are guys on this site that have them and others that know of their whereabouts.
I've owned 4. They're hard to get as they're pretty tightly held by their owners
I've owned 4. They're hard to get as they're pretty tightly held by their owners
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.
Henry David Thoreau
Henry David Thoreau
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
Some of these dogs being hunted are pretty close with not a lot of out breeding. I know several guys in Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona with a good deal of the old blood.
Very interesting when you dig into those papers and go back to some of the greatest hounds and houndsmen in big game history. Not only shows you Steve's dogs background but also some of the other greats. you hear name like Butler, Carroll, Emmet, Goswick. Lees, Landergun,, Bruce, Hert, Nelson, Mathews, and many others. I would guess that the word got out when there was an outstanding one here or there and they would do their best to get in on some of that blood. Some of those mystery greats just showed up such as one found on the street in North Hollywood. LOL!
I know one guy who has a pretty big name in hounds and big game hunting built his whole strain around a stray , starved looking English dog he saw with out a collar eating by a dumpster in a little town he was passing thru. So you just never know????
Very interesting when you dig into those papers and go back to some of the greatest hounds and houndsmen in big game history. Not only shows you Steve's dogs background but also some of the other greats. you hear name like Butler, Carroll, Emmet, Goswick. Lees, Landergun,, Bruce, Hert, Nelson, Mathews, and many others. I would guess that the word got out when there was an outstanding one here or there and they would do their best to get in on some of that blood. Some of those mystery greats just showed up such as one found on the street in North Hollywood. LOL!
I know one guy who has a pretty big name in hounds and big game hunting built his whole strain around a stray , starved looking English dog he saw with out a collar eating by a dumpster in a little town he was passing thru. So you just never know????
MIKE LEONARD
Somewhere out there.............
Somewhere out there.............
Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
Breeding hounds is a interesting game. It takes a lot of hard hunting and years to get a type of hound that works for an individual that hunts enough to be able to breed a strain of dogs that suits him and to get a name to the dogs that follow him. I have hunted with dogs that came from a lot of the names you mention Mike and have talked with several of them in my youth. Dale Lee told me that they were never successful breeding dogs even though they bred a lot of they, but people still use the name of Lee's dogs. I have dogs that came from Northern California that go back to some of the names mentioned. They come out mostly red or hightan even bred to tricolored dogs. The point of this is that I like to see the back ground of a dog but once someone else breeds a dog even though both dogs came from a person be it Steve, Charlie, Nance, Lee"s or any other of the old time greats that does not make it one of theres. They hunted hard and bred for traits that worked for them which may not be the traits the current breeder is looking for or maybe they are just a puppy factory relying on the name. It is good to see the back ground of a litter of pups and it should be noted but remember when a man has been dead for many years the breeding of dogs that he bred may have really changed. I bet some of them old time breeders are turning over in their graves at the dogs that their name has been put on. Just something to think about, not to take away from the hard hunting and selective breeding that some of those people did. Good hunting Dewey
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
Dewey,
You are so right and I have seen this work both ways. I spent a number of years traveling around the west to some of the older hunters who were known over the years to know what a good lion hound was. I was even lucky enough to be able to breed to or get a dog now and then from some of them. As you said very few of them had a successful breeding program, and the most they could ever hope for was a cross that clicked really good, and then ride that till the wheels came off.
I had a few of those crosses and actually ended up with a little line of dogs that sure did pretty good for awhile on lion, and I put a lot of work into these dogs and although I had a lot of fun along the way it cost me a lot too. Not all just in money but other considerations as well and I will leave that for the imagination.
I noticed if these dogs had one ounce of Lee Brothers, or Goswick, or Carroll or any of that old time blood from decades before in them, all the hard work and selection trial, culling and toil that I had done went right by the wayside as soon as I sold a pup, and somebody else decided to breed a dog to it. It was a Lee dog, or a Goswick dog or whatever famous lion hunter they could attach to it regardless if they had been dead 60 years.
I love the romance and tradition of southwest lion hunting as much as anybody and the history interests me greatly, but I also am glad we have a few modern guys today that are still carefully breeding hounds because if you chase that old blood too much these days you will find you need a certified DNA analyst to prove that any of it really still excisits that is not highly mixed up.
You are so right and I have seen this work both ways. I spent a number of years traveling around the west to some of the older hunters who were known over the years to know what a good lion hound was. I was even lucky enough to be able to breed to or get a dog now and then from some of them. As you said very few of them had a successful breeding program, and the most they could ever hope for was a cross that clicked really good, and then ride that till the wheels came off.
I had a few of those crosses and actually ended up with a little line of dogs that sure did pretty good for awhile on lion, and I put a lot of work into these dogs and although I had a lot of fun along the way it cost me a lot too. Not all just in money but other considerations as well and I will leave that for the imagination.
I noticed if these dogs had one ounce of Lee Brothers, or Goswick, or Carroll or any of that old time blood from decades before in them, all the hard work and selection trial, culling and toil that I had done went right by the wayside as soon as I sold a pup, and somebody else decided to breed a dog to it. It was a Lee dog, or a Goswick dog or whatever famous lion hunter they could attach to it regardless if they had been dead 60 years.
I love the romance and tradition of southwest lion hunting as much as anybody and the history interests me greatly, but I also am glad we have a few modern guys today that are still carefully breeding hounds because if you chase that old blood too much these days you will find you need a certified DNA analyst to prove that any of it really still excisits that is not highly mixed up.
MIKE LEONARD
Somewhere out there.............
Somewhere out there.............
Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
I want to applaud the last two posts by Dewey and Mike. I made a long post yesterday but took it down because it was too negative. I am fine with us old guys blowing BS back and forth because it has zero effect on our lives or pocketbooks or pack of hounds. But when I see a young houndsman or two getting all hyped up, it really bothers me that they are not getting the truth. Because if it had been me thirty some years ago I would be tracking one of these wonder dogs down, just like Dewey went tracking down the Lee dogs. Fortunately he got the truth on that. The truth here is not dishonoring to Steve. He was very specific and extremely focused as to what he bred for. And that is what he got. They had qualities everyone needs like amazingly tough feet, for example, but Most people were not satisfied with dogs whose breeding was so focused so they crossed out. You can out cross On Steves dogs for a long time before they entirely quit looking like his dogs. I have seen this in person.
Last edited by david on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- Silent Mouth
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
Got a lot of that mathes blood in my dogs, wish I had more of it in them but after a few generations its getting a little thinned but I seem to get lucky and get throwbacks that look a lot like the old blood and they been making exceptional cat and Lion hounds, I can thank Jeff Brent and blue Milsap for getting me started with this amazing breed of hounds
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
I would say they got a lot of it my dogs bloodlines but the great grandmother "star"is the only one I could call a true mathes hound but she's been gone for 10 years now but over the last few generations of breeding I kept the ones that were a lot like star as long there standards were up to par in the woods
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Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
It was interesting to me to see the names on the papers and where all he went to breed or get dogs
I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.
Henry David Thoreau
Henry David Thoreau
Re: Matthes Lion Hounds
Nothing to do with steve. But I know a successful Hunter who has struggled for years keeping his line intact and functional. There was a complete outcross and these pups where gotten rid of as fast as possible. Couple years later he bumped into one and likes it So much he spent several years trying to gather up the littermates. Most had been cut. I personally am not a believer in outcrossing to produce dogs. But in that case it was a improvement
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