The demise of the hound
The demise of the hound
Typed all this yesterday then somehow deleted it before posting so let's try again. I have breed a few litters of pups over the years but most of my dogs came from people who were ether fed up trying or had big hopes and never got started. . I understand that there are breeders who have proven crosses that produce animals that have the hunt and drive to make true hunting dogs. In my small area of the world they seem to be few and far between. And I'm pretty sure they have the ability to hide as well or better than Bigfoot. Many years ago I'd say 50 percent or so of the dogs I trained would make dogs. If you count the number of one that would go out and show you and animal in a tree every once in a while the percentage would go up. I'm talking about dogs that I was happy to feed. Over the years the percentage of hounds that have the drive brains and talent to do the job seems to have dwindled to about 5 percent or less. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad I'm not saying that your dogs are junk. If you have dogs that your happy with you must have part of the 5 percent. If you think I'm wrong about this please enlighten me. My thoughts on this is the breeding of the best bucket dogsto the best bucket dogs is what's killed the hound as we knew it. Over the past 6 months myself my son and a close friend have tried out over twenty dogs. Anywhere from free to 1500.00. I'm not talking about broke straight hard hunting hound's just young dogs that should have the tools to work with. Our hounds seem to have gone the way of our collage kids a big fancy list of papers that is supposed to make them worth millions but not enough drive to do anything with it.
Re: The demise of the hound
There still are breeders whose percentages are Very high.In fact, in the bobcat hunting world, I feel the percentages are much higher today than they were in the eighties when I started trying to find a good dog.
Sorry about what is happening in your world there. You might need to study up on breeders of dogs who have Carefully stayed away from the breeding influences of the competition world.
Sorry about what is happening in your world there. You might need to study up on breeders of dogs who have Carefully stayed away from the breeding influences of the competition world.
Last edited by david on Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The demise of the hound
I'm having the same problem from regestered and non regestered dogs I'm thinking that with the rise in population of comp dogs it has diluted the blood we have locally to a level that I'm not sure it will ever come back. I'll find what I'm looking for I have no doubt about that. It's just going to take longer. My post wasn't meant to be about just my search but the fact that there are so many fewer hounds that seem to have the ability to get the job done.
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- Open Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
I'm with you Shade, there are just a few dogs that are really quality. I really don't believe there has ever been any better %. I'm 77 and have had only a few, that I thought were quality. My dad was a dog man all his life and he told me way back in the early 50s that a very small % made really good dogs.good solid tree dogs has been the lowest % I've seen. Tried, but never had a real squirrel dog. Went through a lot of dogs that would tree a squirrell and occasionally you could kill a mess but not the kind you could bet on. Had three coon dogs that were quality. One treeing Walker, one red tick, one red tick / Walker cross.all the others could tree a coon but that about I could say about them. Decided I would try to run cat only with running walkers. That was 11 yrs ago and am still trying. Don't believe it's the quality of dogs I'm using but the fault lies with me. I can't hunt a week without hearing a race run something. We have a good number of cats where I hunt but for every cat there is a dozen other animals that dogs like to run and I can break them off all game but not just a few I don't care to run.the % of good running type dogs has been higher than any other breed I dealt with.
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- Tight Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
I have to agree with you on the COMP hunt thing an honest cold nosed strike dog is not wanted, and the rules are such one need not apply.and part of the problem is the lack of folks who do not know how to train a dog , breeding title to title , dogs that will not handle , bark excessively in the pen , the box , babbling , or are just plain crazy and not a pleasure to hunt or have around etc. . I think the pleasure hunter is making a comeback , between coon and cat hunters ,fox hunters hog hunters. And X-breeding , there are a few strains within each breed whether tree hound , Cur or running dog that produce the right traits, if put in the hands of the right pleasure hunters , just might preserve what we all like about hunting with the real deal. Not man made just for the field trials. I have 8 dogs all crossbred with coon hound x running hound and leopard cur/hound and 1 English , Kemmer cur cross.
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Re: The demise of the hound
Having hunted all my life I can tell you
good hounds have never been plentiful.A good dog is one that can tree it's own game . Even when 2 top dogs are mated it's rare to get over 2 or 3 that are as good as their parents.
Most people hunt a pack for that reason.I have a little female now that
goes back to my dogs for 7 generations. She trees her own cat, lion and fox. She wasn't easy to come
by but she will be bred , hoping for more like her !
good hounds have never been plentiful.A good dog is one that can tree it's own game . Even when 2 top dogs are mated it's rare to get over 2 or 3 that are as good as their parents.
Most people hunt a pack for that reason.I have a little female now that
goes back to my dogs for 7 generations. She trees her own cat, lion and fox. She wasn't easy to come
by but she will be bred , hoping for more like her !
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Re: The demise of the hound
The X-breeds we are hunting today are a combination Redbone - Hoffmeister , English -Swamp Rooster X Lightfoot , Bluetick , Leopard , Running Walker not sure will have to check with MR. Clyde Lawson , Trigg- Duplin County NC Bred stuff , and the Plott is out of the Poacher Line. The Redtick x BMC/KEMMER that is exactly what he looks like Redtick hound body and BMC/KEMMER CUR HEAD unknown he just showed up around a store near were I hunt some and hung around for 2 months , they were going to have animal control come pick him up he was half wild , Glad I rescued him he made a fine dog with very little training at all once I made him my buddy.
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Re: The demise of the hound
I've never had or seen a good squirrel dog . Tried it a few times just for shits and giggles but never to a point that I was making enough headway to continue. The only line I have kept for the last 25 years were my beagles fast loose on the line but quick to check. My son wants to refine our pack for more line control and slow them down a bit he is in charge of the beagle pack now and I only go 30 to 40 times a year. So as long as he's happy with then I'm happy. As far as big hounds go I'm still in charge. I haven't seen anything that changes my mind about the percentage of hounds that don't have the ability to make. We had bear hunters around years ago that would raise a litter every year to cover loses and sell the rest. Very few of the dogs I got from them didn't turn out. They had what today's dog don't enough drive to work a track and wanted to run to catch. If I was a young man trying to get into this sport with what I see available today I'd likely quit before I even started good. It was my own fault for not breeding what I was happy with but with a business to run and family to raise plus the thought in my head that there will always be good hounds available from others I didn't. I can say that I gave the vast majority of dogs every benefit of time and feed before I culled if I did my part 50 percent of the dogs did theirs. Today is a different story all together.
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Re: The demise of the hound
It's my experience that most dogs will do something but most are only average type dogs ,few will tree their own game.
Everyone has an opinion of what a good dog is but if they work for you
that is all that matters .
Everyone has an opinion of what a good dog is but if they work for you
that is all that matters .
Re: The demise of the hound
I have been puzzled by this thread, and pondering it. I have had the opposite impression. Dogs just keep getting better and better. And I realized it is the dog PEOPLE I have gravitated toward through my life and become increasingly surrounded by.
A very wise man said to stop looking for the dog and start looking for the man. “Find the man, and you will find the dog.”
I think there is a lot of truth in that. The cost of finding the man can be high. But when you figure the cost of sorting through dogs, it might be a lot cheaper in the long run to go looking for the man.
Part of the problem some people have is that in order to sincerely go looking for the man, you have to believe and openly admit that there is someone with better dogs than you have, and who therefore knows something you don’t know. There always is. But it can be a difficult truth to deal with in more ways than one.
And if that man was perfect, it might be a lot easier truth to deal with. But that man never is.
A very wise man said to stop looking for the dog and start looking for the man. “Find the man, and you will find the dog.”
I think there is a lot of truth in that. The cost of finding the man can be high. But when you figure the cost of sorting through dogs, it might be a lot cheaper in the long run to go looking for the man.
Part of the problem some people have is that in order to sincerely go looking for the man, you have to believe and openly admit that there is someone with better dogs than you have, and who therefore knows something you don’t know. There always is. But it can be a difficult truth to deal with in more ways than one.
And if that man was perfect, it might be a lot easier truth to deal with. But that man never is.
Re: The demise of the hound
It’s a matter of perspectives and how high your standards are. I have kept whole litters for 18 years and have had hounds, much longer than that. With the exception of two, pups that I gave away.) In that time, I was only able to get two pups from most litters, that made outstanding hounds in looks and ability. Out of the last litter, one came out on the bad end of a lion at six months old and slowed her way back and she never could catch up with her litter mates. One male and one female from that litter, are the best that I have every had or seen. That is out of a litter of five.
There a very few hound breeders that stick with it long enough and use good breeding practices. Good breeding practices are counter intuitive and by not using those tools, causes losses, instead of gains.
The other main factor is the environment, which plays a very big role in the success and failure of the hounds. (Feed, timing, housing, handler and amount of the correct type and amount of time spent learning.) Understanding predicable patterns is something not used except from some of the very best breeders.
I gave away a pup that was way on his way of being an outstanding cathound. My friend wanted him so, I gave him to him. He lives on the National Forest and kept the hound in his garage during the day. At night the hound would open the door knob with his mouth, hunt whatever he wanted and come home and would sleep all day and do it again. My friend would enjoy listing to him and the hound enjoyed doing whatever he wanted.
Sometimes you can’t blame the hound, we have to do, our part too.
There a very few hound breeders that stick with it long enough and use good breeding practices. Good breeding practices are counter intuitive and by not using those tools, causes losses, instead of gains.
The other main factor is the environment, which plays a very big role in the success and failure of the hounds. (Feed, timing, housing, handler and amount of the correct type and amount of time spent learning.) Understanding predicable patterns is something not used except from some of the very best breeders.
I gave away a pup that was way on his way of being an outstanding cathound. My friend wanted him so, I gave him to him. He lives on the National Forest and kept the hound in his garage during the day. At night the hound would open the door knob with his mouth, hunt whatever he wanted and come home and would sleep all day and do it again. My friend would enjoy listing to him and the hound enjoyed doing whatever he wanted.
Sometimes you can’t blame the hound, we have to do, our part too.
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Re: The demise of the hound
Most reasonable people know there's always someone better but if they're out there their dogs speak for them and word spreads ..My own opinion is
only 10â„… or less of the total hound population makes top dogs..
Well said JTG.
only 10â„… or less of the total hound population makes top dogs..
Well said JTG.
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Re: The demise of the hound
I’m going to put my opinion in and say it’s the MONEY, the more money gets involved with anything the more perverted it gets, yes there are hunters who are also breeders and sell quality pups, but then there are way more “breeders” who sale dogs than there are hunters who breed dogs, especially when dealing with registered dogs, not picking or insulting a “pure bred” registered dog but very rarely will you see any backcountry created family line of dog for sale on Craigslist especially around the gift giving holidays that are purple ribbon bred, then you have the guys who don’t have the gumption to do what’s necessary to an inferior hound and instead they’ll use them as a “brood dog” or sale them as such or you’ll see them advertised as started young dogs but in reality they’re 48 month old pups, or in the breeds such as the dogo Argentino that was created as a working breed, now a days the show dogs outnumber the working ones and with pups going for 2500$ do you honestly think those dogs are being tested and only the ones who meet a standard are contributing to the gene pool, and I’m not being specific about the dogo this goes for any breed of working dog that has a high market value on pups...
There used to be an old saying used a lot that “competition breeds improvement”, I’m afraid it’s been the demise of a many of once great lines of hounds, especially in the coon dog and running walker breeds thanks to the glorification of money instead of good honest all around hound work...
There used to be an old saying used a lot that “competition breeds improvement”, I’m afraid it’s been the demise of a many of once great lines of hounds, especially in the coon dog and running walker breeds thanks to the glorification of money instead of good honest all around hound work...
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Re: The demise of the hound
Could it be that we put more time into our pups when we are new and so they turn out better?
It has been my opinion that a female should be in the top 5% to be bred(or left intact) and a male should be in the top 1 or 2% to be bred(or left intact). as soon as a fault appears remove it from the gene pool. Might be a great hunting dog but it takes more to make the breeding program.
Just because my neighbor is catching bears with his poodle pointers doesn't mean I want one. A great handler makes up for faults in the dog. Great dogs make up for faults in the handler. You need to find both.
A group of houndsmen dedicated to the improvement of a line of hounds may be the best way to get the hounds you want. Doing it alone will likely take far to long and disappear when you give it up.
They are not unicorns, but they could be someday
It has been my opinion that a female should be in the top 5% to be bred(or left intact) and a male should be in the top 1 or 2% to be bred(or left intact). as soon as a fault appears remove it from the gene pool. Might be a great hunting dog but it takes more to make the breeding program.
Just because my neighbor is catching bears with his poodle pointers doesn't mean I want one. A great handler makes up for faults in the dog. Great dogs make up for faults in the handler. You need to find both.
A group of houndsmen dedicated to the improvement of a line of hounds may be the best way to get the hounds you want. Doing it alone will likely take far to long and disappear when you give it up.
They are not unicorns, but they could be someday
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