The demise of the hound
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- Open Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
Justin, all the really good dogs I've stumbled up on needed me for food, water and a ride to the woods. They took care of all the problems that a soso dog can't take care of. When I look back I realize I didn't have to do anything else.
Re: The demise of the hound
Very interesting posts. Some I agree with, some I struggle more.
I believe a big problem is there are too many people breeding dogs before they are competent in what is needed. They breed dog x to dog y because that's what they have in their kennels, and need a pup, them send these pups to others too. Or breed gyp X to top stud dog, because they want some of this super stock, and known the pups can sell for more.
I often think that competitions dont help improve hounds they way one may think, more so because Man is involved, in the judging and scoring of the dogs, and men in general are not honest, they want to win, to be recognized, to feel the pride of being elevated or have their dog elevated above others with a title, ornsome have said money.
I also believe a hunter can improve the chances of their dog or packs success, or hunts success by decisions made when hunting.
There also are alot of 'fair weather' hunters to go along with those of us who may only be able to hunt weekends or vacation time. The fair weather hunter only goes when they believe conditions are correct, or suit their comfort level, which is fine for them, because hopefully we all hunt for fun, enjoyment, and love of our hounds. Not hunting them in tougher conditions doesn't help them reach full potential. Mr. Finney Clay told me on one of my many stays at his camp you gotta hunt even when conditions aren't perfect. This was in response to a night when I said we didn't have to go hunt it was cold (for arkansas) and wind was blowing 20 mph steady with harder gusts. After hours we finally rigged a cat hot, dogs stayed on that sucker a couple hours and finally put him in a culvert pipe. Alot of hunters would have stayed home (prob me included) and dogs would have lost that experience to work, and solve problems. I believe his 300+ hunting days a year is why he had excellent dogs (along with his selective breeding practices), he wasnt a fair weather hunter. Dogs have to be given the opportunity to turn out, some do it earlier some mature later. My father and I argue about this often, I am much quicker to cull than he is, (not that we cull alot, and usually are usuable dogs for others just not needes in our pack) usually i end up being correct and we give away or cull the dog, but there are times i would have let go of a dog that turned out if i hadn't waited 12 more months. I have a buddy who coon and rabbit hunts who believes he can keep dogs up all year and when he goes agian once season starts the dogs should perform at top levels, his father believes the same way, and there is no way to sway their opinions, even though when they had their best dogs we coon hunted together at the time and went 5 nights a week year round.
I dont feel like I struggle to find pups/dogs that suit, mine aren't the best by a long shot but they make me happy most the time, but I know exactly where to go to get dogs suited for my style and my territory, and dogs that turn out to be better than just usable, and a high rate if put in game.
Couple comments that jumped out at me.
Bluedawg1 said dogs speak for themselves and word gets around. I agree dogs speak for themselves, but I think hunting is so regionalized that word doesn't travel, no offense but I've never heard of anyone on this site before joining years ago, and have made several good friends and many more acquaintances, but all I know of most yalla dogs comes from what yall say, or videos I get emailed or texted. I didn't know the name of a hound hunter outside my area of the country til I used the intetnet. Thebbeat houndsmen, hunters, breeders I know or know of never would be online, some are past, some are living, but they raised dogs that got the job done day in and out in my area, and none of you would know any of their names. So I dont think word truly gets around on.
JustinKeller said 5% of females and 1-2% of males should be bred or left intact, and soon as a fault is seen remove it from gene pool.
Have you owned 100 males and fixed 99 of them, or 100 gyps and spayed 95 of them. If you have to fix at I believe you are dealing with poor genetics to begin with, we should be diligent in our selection, but I bet a higher percent than 1 or 2 are worthy of breeding, but everyone has the right to your opinion. But anecdotal evidence has shown that it isn't always the best performing male in a litter who turns out to be the most prepotent sire. I AGREE that many faulty dogs are bred, however show me 1 that has no fault, never seen a perfect 1 yet. So by that logic soon as you see a fault eliminate the genes, dogs would die out in 12-15 years because nothing would be left to reproduce
I believe a big problem is there are too many people breeding dogs before they are competent in what is needed. They breed dog x to dog y because that's what they have in their kennels, and need a pup, them send these pups to others too. Or breed gyp X to top stud dog, because they want some of this super stock, and known the pups can sell for more.
I often think that competitions dont help improve hounds they way one may think, more so because Man is involved, in the judging and scoring of the dogs, and men in general are not honest, they want to win, to be recognized, to feel the pride of being elevated or have their dog elevated above others with a title, ornsome have said money.
I also believe a hunter can improve the chances of their dog or packs success, or hunts success by decisions made when hunting.
There also are alot of 'fair weather' hunters to go along with those of us who may only be able to hunt weekends or vacation time. The fair weather hunter only goes when they believe conditions are correct, or suit their comfort level, which is fine for them, because hopefully we all hunt for fun, enjoyment, and love of our hounds. Not hunting them in tougher conditions doesn't help them reach full potential. Mr. Finney Clay told me on one of my many stays at his camp you gotta hunt even when conditions aren't perfect. This was in response to a night when I said we didn't have to go hunt it was cold (for arkansas) and wind was blowing 20 mph steady with harder gusts. After hours we finally rigged a cat hot, dogs stayed on that sucker a couple hours and finally put him in a culvert pipe. Alot of hunters would have stayed home (prob me included) and dogs would have lost that experience to work, and solve problems. I believe his 300+ hunting days a year is why he had excellent dogs (along with his selective breeding practices), he wasnt a fair weather hunter. Dogs have to be given the opportunity to turn out, some do it earlier some mature later. My father and I argue about this often, I am much quicker to cull than he is, (not that we cull alot, and usually are usuable dogs for others just not needes in our pack) usually i end up being correct and we give away or cull the dog, but there are times i would have let go of a dog that turned out if i hadn't waited 12 more months. I have a buddy who coon and rabbit hunts who believes he can keep dogs up all year and when he goes agian once season starts the dogs should perform at top levels, his father believes the same way, and there is no way to sway their opinions, even though when they had their best dogs we coon hunted together at the time and went 5 nights a week year round.
I dont feel like I struggle to find pups/dogs that suit, mine aren't the best by a long shot but they make me happy most the time, but I know exactly where to go to get dogs suited for my style and my territory, and dogs that turn out to be better than just usable, and a high rate if put in game.
Couple comments that jumped out at me.
Bluedawg1 said dogs speak for themselves and word gets around. I agree dogs speak for themselves, but I think hunting is so regionalized that word doesn't travel, no offense but I've never heard of anyone on this site before joining years ago, and have made several good friends and many more acquaintances, but all I know of most yalla dogs comes from what yall say, or videos I get emailed or texted. I didn't know the name of a hound hunter outside my area of the country til I used the intetnet. Thebbeat houndsmen, hunters, breeders I know or know of never would be online, some are past, some are living, but they raised dogs that got the job done day in and out in my area, and none of you would know any of their names. So I dont think word truly gets around on.
JustinKeller said 5% of females and 1-2% of males should be bred or left intact, and soon as a fault is seen remove it from gene pool.
Have you owned 100 males and fixed 99 of them, or 100 gyps and spayed 95 of them. If you have to fix at I believe you are dealing with poor genetics to begin with, we should be diligent in our selection, but I bet a higher percent than 1 or 2 are worthy of breeding, but everyone has the right to your opinion. But anecdotal evidence has shown that it isn't always the best performing male in a litter who turns out to be the most prepotent sire. I AGREE that many faulty dogs are bred, however show me 1 that has no fault, never seen a perfect 1 yet. So by that logic soon as you see a fault eliminate the genes, dogs would die out in 12-15 years because nothing would be left to reproduce
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
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- Babble Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
I am thinking this should say, demise of places to hunt a hound. Perk you are spot on if one goes by Justin/s standard there would never be another litter of pups. Al
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- Open Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
Perk , I was talking about breeders who have the intent to sell dogs, even if it is only regional.Lots of guys , most I guess, breed for themselves
but that doesn't mean they'll suit others. Breeders like Haslouer had a national reputation.
When I was younger I gave dogs more effort and time to make it and many made good dogs but today I know more and wouldn't put that much intensity into making one. I wouldn't even keep many of those same dogs
because I know what I want and Don't
settle for less.
I'VE never seen a perfect dog either
but I have seen several that could do it all at bobcat hunting that is.
but that doesn't mean they'll suit others. Breeders like Haslouer had a national reputation.
When I was younger I gave dogs more effort and time to make it and many made good dogs but today I know more and wouldn't put that much intensity into making one. I wouldn't even keep many of those same dogs
because I know what I want and Don't
settle for less.
I'VE never seen a perfect dog either
but I have seen several that could do it all at bobcat hunting that is.
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- Bawl Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
Good hounds are a lot harder for me to find than it used to, but all my contacts, kinfolks and guys I used to hunt with have quit or are gone. I've judged the open field trials here for quite a few years and see there are some guys that still have some really good hounds. None of them are from my small community, I only know them to speak to them. Been trying to get some pups or unstarted young dogs from some of them but haven't been successful yet. I'm not much on buying a grown dog. I have seen a couple I wanted but when I approached the owners was told quick, hound was not for sale.
Im not going to say , what I'm hauling now suits me, I have one that does n when she comes in I will breed her. Haven't nailed down a worthy sire yet though. That is what seems extremely hard to find! I will say each of mine has their moments n any gray fox or bobcat they get after better be on it's A game. Not any better than any other dedicated hunter, just a bunch of dogs a feller can run something with.
Perk, I agree with I think your entire post. It's too long for me to wrap my small brain all the way around it to know for sure. Haha
Macedonia muleman, all I teach mine is what not to run and to come when I call em. How good they are or ain't is all them.
Al, no place to hunt is the main reason there is no longer any hounds in my community.
Im not going to say , what I'm hauling now suits me, I have one that does n when she comes in I will breed her. Haven't nailed down a worthy sire yet though. That is what seems extremely hard to find! I will say each of mine has their moments n any gray fox or bobcat they get after better be on it's A game. Not any better than any other dedicated hunter, just a bunch of dogs a feller can run something with.
Perk, I agree with I think your entire post. It's too long for me to wrap my small brain all the way around it to know for sure. Haha
Macedonia muleman, all I teach mine is what not to run and to come when I call em. How good they are or ain't is all them.
Al, no place to hunt is the main reason there is no longer any hounds in my community.
Re: The demise of the hound
HASLOUER? never heard the name sir.
Any game we run is also requires different tools for the terrain we hunt, I was discussing this I a conversation with David earlier.
Many of the pictures I see of grey foxes in trees are in a type of timber that you would be hard pressed to ever find a grey fox or bobcat traveling thru, much less staying and running in.
The more open the territory the less pressure it may take to make an animal climb or be caught, the taller the timber the more locating ability one may need.
I'll give an example of a cross I made that is 2 years old now, i consider it a failure personally, offspring was 3/4 trigg 1/4 running Walker. All the trigg breeding was line bred sawmill run kennels (Cecil Boggs) , the Walker in the pedigree was a nice Male I had who located and treed hard for a fox dog. So I bred my half running walker/trigg (who located, treed, loved to catch, and could really turn in the thick when a fox or cat doubled down, or pump wind out him when he was covering ground) to a line bred trigg same breeding as my half triggs mother. Had 7 pups, I kept 1, 2 boys who hunt like I do kept 1 a piece, all 3 of us got rid of ours, another buddy kept 2, who he likes in fox pen or running reds in crops or big timber, I've seen these 2 do nothing in many many races in the thicket but stand in path, they dont suit me personally (but I dont feed them) a guy I'm Michigan has 2, who he loves, were running rabbits and treeing squirrels in yard at a young age, Says they just leave the tree dogs they hunt in the dust after a while they. have such drive. He also saw mine run in the territory I hunt and says he hunts nothing near the thickness of my area and he doesn't know if his would attack those briairs either.
So what is required to catch cats in his country is obviously different than my area, because of the 5 I have hunted with regularly in my neck of the country all are culls. So perhaps (or highly likely) some of these top bobcat dogs would be culls in another mans territory.
Any game we run is also requires different tools for the terrain we hunt, I was discussing this I a conversation with David earlier.
Many of the pictures I see of grey foxes in trees are in a type of timber that you would be hard pressed to ever find a grey fox or bobcat traveling thru, much less staying and running in.
The more open the territory the less pressure it may take to make an animal climb or be caught, the taller the timber the more locating ability one may need.
I'll give an example of a cross I made that is 2 years old now, i consider it a failure personally, offspring was 3/4 trigg 1/4 running Walker. All the trigg breeding was line bred sawmill run kennels (Cecil Boggs) , the Walker in the pedigree was a nice Male I had who located and treed hard for a fox dog. So I bred my half running walker/trigg (who located, treed, loved to catch, and could really turn in the thick when a fox or cat doubled down, or pump wind out him when he was covering ground) to a line bred trigg same breeding as my half triggs mother. Had 7 pups, I kept 1, 2 boys who hunt like I do kept 1 a piece, all 3 of us got rid of ours, another buddy kept 2, who he likes in fox pen or running reds in crops or big timber, I've seen these 2 do nothing in many many races in the thicket but stand in path, they dont suit me personally (but I dont feed them) a guy I'm Michigan has 2, who he loves, were running rabbits and treeing squirrels in yard at a young age, Says they just leave the tree dogs they hunt in the dust after a while they. have such drive. He also saw mine run in the territory I hunt and says he hunts nothing near the thickness of my area and he doesn't know if his would attack those briairs either.
So what is required to catch cats in his country is obviously different than my area, because of the 5 I have hunted with regularly in my neck of the country all are culls. So perhaps (or highly likely) some of these top bobcat dogs would be culls in another mans territory.
Last edited by perk on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
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Re: The demise of the hound
*
Last edited by Rshcwisdom on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Open Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
I can agree with you on that Perk but seriously you've never heard of Warren
J Haslouer of Smokey River Kennels ?
lol
J Haslouer of Smokey River Kennels ?
lol
Re: The demise of the hound
Bluedawg1, gotta plead ignorance, never heard the mand name before today, or his kennel til I joined on here a few years back
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
Re: The demise of the hound
The dogs I've looked at have been from here up the road down the road and from east and west of the road. I wasn't trying to discuss the different abilities of dogs in one patch of woods to the corn fields fifty miles up the interstate. I'm talking about the breeds in general. I haven't found the quality of animals that have been available in the past. I've mostly hunted this area for the last 25 years kept a few dogs that suited me. But I'm looking to hit it hard within the next few years. My son is coming along and should be able to take most of the day to day business stuff off of me . Where I can focus on hunting outside my area . Three to four nights a week and a day or two is my schedule now. I've got pisgah national forest at my back door. The hunting isn't easy but there's plenty of property for a hound to stretch his legs. It wasn't my intention to come here looking for a dog or dogs just to see if anyone else was having the same issue finding quality hounds.
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- Bawl Mouth
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Re: The demise of the hound
Shade, just curious, what kind of hunting are you doing, coon, bear, cat fox or what?
1bluedog, I'd never heard of the man either. Did go coon hunting a few times with a old man back in the early 70s, he had a dog he called Smokey River something, maybe he knew of him.
1bluedog, I'd never heard of the man either. Did go coon hunting a few times with a old man back in the early 70s, he had a dog he called Smokey River something, maybe he knew of him.
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Re: The demise of the hound
Shade, you are beginning what I have been enjoying for the last 7 yrs. it's good believe me. I hunt when and as much as I want to. I hunt the Hommochitto Forrest in Mississippi and have access to 15,000 acres between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. Dog running is becoming more difficult every year. Never thought I would never have to play the dumb ole man part to get out of trouble. I've found its easier to get forgiveness than to get permission. They are slowly but surely squeezing dog runners out down here. I think I can have 3 more good years. Have a pretty good pack of dogs for what i do. Hope you can enjoy a few years. I made a few hunts out of territory but most were wild goose chases. Like to get a big thermos of community coffee and hunt by myself. Good luck.
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Re: The demise of the hound
73 years ago, at the "ripe ole age of 5"I remember my Dad taking me fox hunting with him. Been at it every since. Went last Friday morning with a hunting friend, of over 45 years. Weather was not good windy and rain off and on. Finally jumped a cat about 8:00 am the dogs ran him about 2 hrs we managed to stay up with the race thanx to Garmin. We would get out and listen when the rain let up, but the cat finally put it on our trash and went up into the atmosphere. Regarding the demise of the hound, I think it is a bunch of reasons. In our area there are not near as many hunters or hounds as there used to be. Land development , deer, outlawing fox pens and the lack of open woods for use by the public. I can only express my opinion on the breeding issue. We usually try to breed hounds that do what we want them to, where we hunt, and hope for the best. Today, got a fairly decent pack, managed to catch 4,out of the last 7 jumped. Through out the years we have been "without", lots more than " with"as far as decent hounds are concerned. Just thankful to the Lord, to be able to enjoy our sport. Enjoy BGH and every ones posts. If you have a story or thought share it , we will enjoy it. I'll hush now. John
Re: The demise of the hound
Shade, sorry some of my post have gotten off yiurboriginal topic, my mind tends to go anywhere when I think aloud to people. I dont mean disrespect or to be condescending with my next comment so please take no offense, but if you have hunted 25 years in the same area and dont have or know from where to get dogs that suite already, I'm not sure what to make of it or to tell you, Other than No, I dont have any trouble finding hounds that do what I require of them in my area. Happy hunting, glad yournfonna have alot of time in the woods!
Perk
Perk
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
EGO is not your AMIGO
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