American Foxhound confusion

Talk about Big Game Hunting with Dogs
JonBailey64
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American Foxhound confusion

Postby JonBailey64 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:05 pm

The American Kennel Club recognizes 'American Foxhound' as an official dog breed.

A little research on line has revealed that:

-Treeing Walker
-Running Walker
-Trigg
-July

...are all sub-flavors of the so-called "American Foxhound".

For many years I thought there was just one true "American Foxhound" as invented by George Washington.

I thought the Walker type hounds baying at bears and lions up trees was an entirely separate breed.

Since I have wounded deer, coyotes and red foxes in mind, I probably need something of a Running Walker.

I think all these tricolor slim-n-leggy American Foxhound variants very handsome with a cute beagle-like face.

How hard is it to find tricolor "Running Walker" puppies especially in the Western States as Idaho which are pedigreed (papered)?

Why are American breeders of hunting hounds most commonly registering their stock through UKC instead of AKC?
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby perk » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:01 pm

Think you have some misinformation about foxhounds, especially American foxhounds. Treeing Walker is not a subset of the America. Foxhound, it was created from American foxhounds but has long been recognized as ita own breed.with it's own breed standards.
George Washington definitely wasnt the creator of the American foxhound. As the breed was created at least a century after Washington, even though yes he was a fox hunter, but not with any strains of the American foxhound (Walker, trigg, birdsong, sugar loaf, wild goose, penmarydel, July, henry, hudspeth, bywater, Goodman's, or Calhoun. To name the most popular lines in last 150 years most of which no longer exist as a strain) mostly today you have the ability to easily find in America a Walker, trigg, July, and more difficultly the Goodman.
The American fox hound are registered usually in the IFSB or SFSB, not AKC. Most akc registered American foxhounds are purely show hounds, not bred for hunting but to look at and meet breed standards, and there are hunters all over the east coast and south east who use them to pursue foxes in enclosures, and some of us who run fox and bobcat in the wild with packs not allowing deer chases, not just deer hunters over here, in the north east and midwest alot of men use them to run coyotes in the wild.
May be tougher to get one in Idaho, but the foxhound is the state dog in Virginia.

What's your hunting history and background with foxhounds? Because I believe the internet has greatly misinformed you
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JonBailey64
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby JonBailey64 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:50 pm

perk wrote:Think you have some misinformation about foxhounds, especially American foxhounds. Treeing Walker is not a subset of the America. Foxhound, it was created from American foxhounds but has long been recognized as ita own breed.with it's own breed standards.
George Washington definitely wasnt the creator of the American foxhound. As the breed was created at least a century after Washington, even though yes he was a fox hunter, but not with any strains of the American foxhound (Walker, trigg, birdsong, sugar loaf, wild goose, penmarydel, July, henry, hudspeth, bywater, Goodman's, or Calhoun. To name the most popular lines in last 150 years most of which no longer exist as a strain) mostly today you have the ability to easily find in America a Walker, trigg, July, and more difficultly the Goodman.
The American fox hound are registered usually in the IFSB or SFSB, not AKC. Most akc registered American foxhounds are purely show hounds, not bred for hunting but to look at and meet breed standards, and there are hunters all over the east coast and south east who use them to pursue foxes in enclosures, and some of us who run fox and bobcat in the wild with packs not allowing deer chases, not just deer hunters over here, in the north east and midwest alot of men use them to run coyotes in the wild.
May be tougher to get one in Idaho, but the foxhound is the state dog in Virginia.

What's your hunting history and background with foxhounds? Because I believe the internet has greatly misinformed you
Perk


I have no personal experience owning or hunting with my own foxhounds. I have hunted deer in the past with a guide and he had his own tricolor foxhound-looking dog for trailing back in 1996.

I just did not realize they weren't just another breed like Golden Retrievers and Labradors which are highly available everywhere and which are commonly registered under AKC. I have owed four AKC-registered Labradors in the past and one Beagle registered there too. The Beagle, also a hound, just a pet only, was purchased by me from a backyard breeder as well as my four retrievers, just pets only. I went to the AKC website under "American Foxhound" and did a query for breeders anywhere in the United States of America and the AKC website said there were "no breeders". It gave me the impression this "breed" was somehow super rare or possibly extinct. Yes, I need to learn much more about foxhounds and who sells them (or their variants) anywhere in the United States of America. I suspect the Southern states are going to hold most of the breeding stock.

I have a new interest in hunting red foxes in the Western States as well as having a hound for trailing blood for wounded deer. I'm trying to figure out who breeds and sells such hounds. Google doesn't reveal much.

Yes, I have much to learn about foxhounds still. I'm looking for good resources to learn. I also want to learn how to use these dogs in hunting and how to select them and train them. I don't want own a whole pack but just one.

I'm beginning to now realize that foxhound-type dogs, unlike German Shepherds, Poodles and Retrievers aren't breeds for the general masses.

I ran an Oodle pets classifieds search for Boise, ID, my home city. Under "running Walker" nothing came up. Under "foxhound" one dog came up: a five-year-old male mix from a rescue.
No such puppies listed.

Under Oodle Marketplace for Richmond, Virginia under "foxhound" there are a bunch of dogs listed which are all adult dogs (many mixes) for adoption and no puppies. Under the search term "running Walker" only one "treeing Walker" adult is listed for adoption.

I take it breeders of foxhounds and sellers of registrable PUREBRED foxhound pups in America are an exclusive club like the Freemasons.
Last edited by JonBailey64 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
perk
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby perk » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:35 pm

No not an exclusive club for purebred dogs, agian the 2 main registries are neither akc or ukc. But the IFSB (international foxhound stud book) which is held and controlled by the company that owns Chase magazine, and SFSB (standard foxhound stud book) which is owned and operated by the company that does The Hunters Horn magazine.

AKC has fewer registered dogs, and 99.9% are gonna be show hounds, not working dogs.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby perk » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:38 pm

Go to speeddogs.net or masterfox.net and click on classifieds link and will see pages and pages of ads for dogs that are already running and puppies for sale from breeders. Most of all them can be registered unless the add says grade dog. Just to get am idea of the amount and easy access to this breed
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby SASS » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:59 am

My advice for you would be to try and find someone hunting fox or bobcat close to you and see if they will take you out a time or two so you can see how it works. Haven't heard of anybody specializing on Red Fox in ID only grey fox and bobcats, not to mention there are plenty of bear and lion hunters in that state. Not saying you couldn't as I do not live there and dont know, but I am sure someone who does could chime in about that.

The next thing I noticed is you would like them to trail blood too, that could cause problems because one of the most important things you do with your hounds is break them off deer, but there might be people doing both I have just not heard or seen it, but it might be a little contradictory to each other, you might need dogs for hunting and a separate blood tracking dog. Just a thought regardless good luck and have fun.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby JonBailey64 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:13 am

SASS wrote:My advice for you would be to try and find someone hunting fox or bobcat close to you and see if they will take you out a time or two so you can see how it works. Haven't heard of anybody specializing on Red Fox in ID only grey fox and bobcats, not to mention there are plenty of bear and lion hunters in that state. Not saying you couldn't as I do not live there and dont know, but I am sure someone who does could chime in about that.

The next thing I noticed is you would like them to trail blood too, that could cause problems because one of the most important things you do with your hounds is break them off deer, but there might be people doing both I have just not heard or seen it, but it might be a little contradictory to each other, you might need dogs for hunting and a separate blood tracking dog. Just a thought regardless good luck and have fun.


Yes, that knowledge does help. It is becoming more and more apparent to me that no single hound is highly versatile enough for hunting many different species of game. If I were to have only one hound, I would have to decide whether I want a blood-trailer or a dog for non-treeing fur-bearing game. I don't even know if a single hound is sufficient for any fox or coyote hunting in the West anyway. If I want to hunt bear, coon and lion then I would need yet another specialized dog like a treeing Walker.

I can see now why hounds are in disfavor among a lot of American hunters for personal ownership these days. Hounds are usually owned by guides and hunt clubs, in large packs, and not individual private hunters.

The other thing is that deer is, BY FAR, the most popular non-feathered game species in America and only some Southern states permit running hounds on deer.

In feathered game, on the other hand, one can get a Golden or Labrador Retriever (much easier) and have just one dog for all feathered game seasons: dove to pheasant to duck to grouse to chukar to quail, etc.

So the supply of hounds is based upon the demands of the American hunting community it would now seem to me.

In short, it seems that hounds are not usually "do-it-yourself" kinds of dogs that bird dogs often are. Most hunters don't own the hounds that are involved in their particular game be it Southern deer or Western bear or lion: some other party, as the outfitter, has the dog end of it covered, with personnel designated to handle the dogs while the hunters mind their own guns.

I would probably, now that I know more about it, only have one hound for blood-trailing in the deer field and for no other reason. I don't ever want to wound deer anyway. So the hound becomes something like a fire extinguisher in hoping never to need to use it.

I don't fancy bobcat or any fox species except red fox but since red fox hunting seems not common in the West I may never find a mentor on the subject. I don't want own a whole pack of hounds if that is what's needed for hound hunting anyway. I don't fancy coon or mountain lion. Coyotes might be fun to bag with a scoped varmint rifle but how many hounds, running Walkers for example, does one need for practical coyote varminting, a dozen? Can a single hound, even one specialized in blood-trailing deer, double as a decoy dog for songdogs? Black-mouth curs and even retrievers have been used as decoy dogs for 'yotes.

If I were to own a possible single hound as a deer blood-trailer, I would also own probably a Golden Retriever for wingshooting seasons. I figure a male retriever and perhaps a hound bitch since I like having a pair of pooches being a male and female each whether of the same breed or not.

I don't fancy lion, wolf or coon huntin' but if were to ever have a hankering for a nice bear rug by hearth, I would probably book a hunt through an outfitter and he would supply the hounds himself.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby JonBailey64 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:21 pm

perk wrote:Go to speeddogs.net or masterfox.net and click on classifieds link and will see pages and pages of ads for dogs that are already running and puppies for sale from breeders. Most of all them can be registered unless the add says grade dog. Just to get am idea of the amount and easy access to this breed


I would avoid a GRADE animal then like the plague. The term GRADE is deceiving implying quality when the dog can't even be papered.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby david » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:56 pm

JonBailey64 wrote:I would avoid a GRADE animal then like the plague. The term GRADE is deceiving implying quality when the dog can't even be papered.


Jon, for some of us grade dogs have far surpassed our registered dogs in performance in the field; so much so as to cast doubt and prejudice against anything registered. There are great registered dogs, however. But they have to prove themselves to me and overcome my prejudice with their own merit.

Great hard headed, hard driving, relentless, tireless hunting hounds do not often make the best pets in my opinion. Many breeds of dog can be taught to blood trail, including every bird dog ever born. They enjoy it, and love giving you pleasure in this way. It is one of the easiest things to teach a dog to do. If you are looking for a great pet that loves to hunt and could double as an excellent blood trailer, could hunt antler sheds, could be taught to decoy, etc etc get a lab, or a lab crossed on a black mouth cur or other fur driven breed.
I have a freind with this cross who has had pure labs, and his lab x black mouth cur is by far his most enjoyable, most talented family/livestock and hunting dog. He paid $700 for his first pup and went back a year later and bought another for the same price.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby perk » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:17 pm

Grade is not a derogatory term, just means it cannot be registered in a registry, bc it is either of a mixed background or out of hounds who werent papered. Papers are only a document that tells a hounds ancestors. And are often false anyways due to human greed, I'd 1 person falsified papers on a dog, then every dog to ever have that dog in its ancestry has an inaccurate pedigree to some extend. That goes with all breeds, and all registries.
Saying a grade dog isnt quality is about as false a statement at times that can be made, usually made by people who dont know or are the snobbish ones who need name brand not generic brand groceries.
I have some dogs that can be registered and never have because I dont need a paper, and I have alot of grade dogs, and have been breeding them for years and some are of the opinion they are quality.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby JonBailey64 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:29 pm

perk wrote:Grade is not a derogatory term, just means it cannot be registered in a registry, bc it is either of a mixed background or out of hounds who werent papered. Papers are only a document that tells a hounds ancestors. And are often false anyways due to human greed, I'd 1 person falsified papers on a dog, then every dog to ever have that dog in its ancestry has an inaccurate pedigree to some extend. That goes with all breeds, and all registries.
Saying a grade dog isnt quality is about as false a statement at times that can be made, usually made by people who dont know or are the snobbish ones who need name brand not generic brand groceries.
I have some dogs that can be registered and never have because I dont need a paper, and I have alot of grade dogs, and have been breeding them for years and some are of the opinion they are quality.


Perk, I humbly confess I don't know Shinola about hounds. It's just that my mother who has owned various purebred dogs had me sold on the notion that AKC was the Almighty God of Purebred Dogs.

I watched Disney's Savage Sam and the Bluetick Coonhound looked a rather brave dog in the Hollywood film.

What do I know about hounds? Years ago, I owned an AKC Beagle, male, Tricolor, registered puppy from a BYB in West Sacramento, CA. A pet. A little bundle of pure trouble. Always getting out of my yard through fence. A neighbor once brought him home to me in his car and threatened to call the pound next time. I had an ID collar tag on the dog. Destructive behavior. Bayed like hell all night long. The neighbors raised a stink. Had to be rehomed a year latter. My mother owned a Dachshund bitch. My grandfather owned a Dachshund male. Just pets again. I once fostered a tricolor male Basset hound for a couple of months. Long ears always dragging on the ground and getting dirty in the food bowl. Always cleaning the ears with a cloth in alcohol and water after his meals. Lazy as the devil. Slept constantly.

Do you recommend any good books for those interested in taking up hunting with a serious hound for sport? Those pretty American Foxhounds I only see in Web pictures these days have my heartstrings. I never see people walking them in my city parks in Boise, ID. They seem something of a mythical unicorn, sans the horn, whenever I see them in photos. Something as rare as Dr. Doolittle's two-headed push-me-pull-you. But they might not be a good idea too the more I learn about them.
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Re: American Foxhound confusion

Postby macedonia mule man » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:09 am

Jon Bailey, I doubt anybody can tell you how to come up with what you want or need. You are like every body that has a notion about some type dog hunting. No one on here knows what you want but you, and you will know what you want and works for you when you see it. There is no short cut. You can get a lot of bad advice on here and everywhere else concerning dog that you need to do whatever. Get what you think you need and go to the woods, you can talk to people and try to get advice till hell freezes over and still not have anything . Reading these comments is a fun thing to do but it will not train a dog for you. Training is up to you. Stay in the woods as much as you can and you will recognize what you want when it happens, and it will happen but will most likely not be what you were expecting. Good luck
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leashed dog

Postby mrburneisen » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Jon Bailey,

From reading what you are interested in, and what you have experience with I would get a Labrador Retriever and train him for deer tracking. He will be a fantastic family pet, live to please you, and on the occasion you need him to track a wounded deer, he will take the track and not rip your arm out of its socket on the trail. I'm not sure of the Laws in Idaho, but in Western NC you are only permitted to track a wounded deer with a dog on a leash. With that in mind you will want a dog that can aid you in finding the deer, not a dog to track the first hot deer track he comes across and try to catch the deer himself. I had labradors growing up and they had decent noses and lived to make me happy. I am a novice houndsmen, but an expert deer tracker and what the dog can do is help you, not do it for you. It's your job to make sure you are on the same deer you shot, not a doe that wandered through the area after you left to get your dog. All dogs will want to run the fresher track if given the choice, but your labrador will want to make you happy and will be easier for you to train. With your dog on a leash you will use him as a tool to help you find the deer you shot instead of spending all day trying to catch a hound who is busy chasing live deer all over the mountain. If you have your heart set on a hound remember those negative behaviours you saw in the beagle were only because he wanted to hunt. The escaping, baying all night, and chewing stuff up was because he was bored and wanted to hunt. If you had taken that beagle for a 2 mile jog every night he would have been too tired to escape and bay all night. I have talked to folks that keep hounds for pets and pay cross country runners to exercise their dogs for them when they can not do it themselves.

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