Split Race

Talk about Big Game Hunting with Dogs
david
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Re: Split Race

Postby david » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:33 am

Walkerdirt wrote:As far as the pup goes it’s just good to hear him trailing and running to the race at 8 months. But I could see how the cold nosed dog cold be teaching him bad habits by going over the same track over and over.


Yes. You are right. This is something to be very concerned about for your pup. It is very young. I didn’t realize it was this young. There are potential problems with starting it on difficult races so young. But even if it was older, this problem you mentioned is real.

I have taught dogs like your cold tracker that they are not allowed to re-work a track. It takes some work, and you have to get in there with it. But your dog shows some intelligence so probably could learn if you are willing to put in the work and teach him a sound or command that means move on out of here and don’t come back.

Once he knows the rules, you can keep him moving with a tone. That dog sounds like death to a cat show unless you get him out of that.

The ideal most serious cat hunters hope for is a dog that never barks on a track that has already been covered. And I would take it a step further to say they do not linger or return to a track that has been covered except to refresh the direction out of there, and they stay quiet until they get to Un-touched track. This is the ideal. It is rarely 100% realized.

But it sounds like you have a real problem if you want to catch a lot of cats. I don’t want to sound mean, and you can have a ton of fun with him just learning about bobcats. But if you want to get serious about catching them, you will need to break him of that, or pull him out of there before you put the pup in. He can’t be allowed to rework a track. And you need to get his understanding of that built up and when he fully understands, tone him and shock him for it if he does it. And if you don’t keep that pup separate from him, you may end up having to break two dogs of this. (Although I feel it is largely genetic, and hopefully the pup does not have the genetics for this.) This is advanced training. Most people would not do it. But I know how it is when you already have so much invested in him. He can help you, but...

Either that or switch him over to being a coon and bear dog and leave him home when you go cat hunting.

I know that sounds harsh. And you don’t have to get so serious about it. Just have fun with him. But if you want to actually catch Bobcats it is one of the most difficult sports there is in many ways. Especially if you are doing this without a mentor. My hat is off to you.
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Re: Split Race

Postby Walkerdirt » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:08 am

david wrote:That was an awesome story. Write some more of them when you have them!!

Your style is so much like mine was. 2 dogs, and one apprentice. I might have done exactly what you did in that situation. And then when I didn’t catch the cat, I would analyze the race for weeks so that I could hopefully do better if that situation comes up again. Some of them I am still trying to figure out. I had seen enough to know that my decisions as a handler often made the difference one way or the other.

My decision in your situation would have depended on those weeks and months (years?) of analyzing this particular pair of dogs as individuals and how they work together.

And it would depend on what my goals are. If my hard and fast goal was to catch the cat for someone, I would NOT have added the pup. The pup is probably why the other dog had no chance of leaving that circle when the cat did.

If my goal is to get the next “world beater” trained up, then of course I would have added the pup and accepted the results of undermining the effectiveness of my pack.

If the lead dog had enough grit to handle a cat by itself, and I wanted this cat caught, I would never have fed those two back in to it. And I am saying that for an area where bobcats don’t climb. In an area where they usually climb and I wanted that cat, I definitely would not have fed the other dogs. In my mind, if that dog is what I think it probably is, you would have caught that cat if you had not distracted it with dogs calling him backwards and sideways and whatever. ESPECIALLY if we are talking about snow. Let that dog focus. Caught cat.

If you are not needing a caught cat, you did exactly the right thing, in my opinion. The breeding on that pup, again my opinion, might show you the best solo bobcat dog you ever saw. But it deffinately won’t if it doesn’t get tons of experience.

Thanks again for a great story. You gotta keep us up on how that pup is doing.


I’m going to hold onto this one. Thanks David. I’ll keep you posted
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Re: Split Race

Postby Walkerdirt » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:21 am

I can handle constructive criticisms so don’t worry about that. My dogs have a command to move up the trail when they fall behind. “Get up there” gets them moving. I hadn’t thought to use it when they are on track. I’ll keep that in mind this weekend and will definitely me more proactive with helping them move tracks. In this case it would have meant serious bushwhacking.
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Re: Split Race

Postby Walkerdirt » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:43 am

Jeff Eberle wrote:My dogs are silent on track for the most part if one slips out on the others its not for long , even fanned out looking for the out track they keep tabs on each other pretty good. My question to you is how long have them two older dog been hunting together? And does this happen a lot on cat with them ? I’m with David on putting that pup with the one that slips out on the other dog


I bought silent dog as a pup to run with cold nosed dog. They’ve been hunting together for about a year. As silent dog gets older he is slipping out more and more. I wouldn’t have picked up the pup but silent dog had been silent for so long that when I had the chance at pick of the litter on the trigg/leopard I took it. So far he is looking good and sounds like a monster on track.
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Re: Split Race

Postby Walkerdirt » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:46 am

david wrote:Just a quick thought. If you put a bell on that silent dog, I think your pup might have enough sense to actually pay attention to that bell. Possibly even the cold tracker, but not as likely. Those good cold trackers sometimes loose themselves in their own world. That dog might still be working that circle if you would let it.

If your focus is to make that pup all it can be, I would pull that cold tracker out of there as soon as it’s job was done, if I had the chance. In other words, as soon as the cat was up and moving. Let the pup focus on the faster dog; and on the cat. If that cold tracker is like most great cold trackers I have known, it is only keeping that pup from moving ahead like it naturally would without that dog in there.

Either one of those dogs (pup or cold tracker) might have been aware that the silent dog was leaving the circle. The two together had no chance of it.


This is interesting because pup almost went with silent dog on gps but turned back to cold nosed bawl mouth. Makes sense.
david
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Re: Split Race

Postby david » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:30 am

Walkerdirt wrote:This is interesting because pup almost went with silent dog on gps but turned back to cold nosed bawl mouth. Makes sense.


Right there your pup probably had a monster opportunity to haze a jumped/lined out bobcat with a potential bobcat catching dog. Your cold tracker took that opportunity away from your pup...and will continue to until/and if the pup becomes self confident enough to ignore it.

Even if that bawl mouth dog had broke and went with the other hound, And knowing how your pup is bred, I predict he will be pulling that pup backwards in those races.
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Re: Split Race

Postby pegleg » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:32 am

David. Its not very high on my list to see good silent dogs somewhere else. I am however always willing to go hunt with someone.
To me nomenclature houndsmen use was the bigger point. But as i stated i've have a preference for a hound that opens on track. And AL a tight mouth dog is still open on track. A babbling dog im not a big fan of. But to me a babbling dog is the one who always makes noise with out performing. Now if a dog is running down a track i dont care if he bays every step aslong as he is showing solid progress thats not babbling to me just a very open running hound. And with the many different types of voices hounds have some can just carry that at a faster pace, while still moving.
Bobcats ducking down and holding is just part of the game. Which in the end is usually considered the dogs being able to catch or show the cat at the end of the race.
I guess what was partially in my mind is in the last decade or so i've placed a number of hounds into search and rescue and prison chase teams. The thing is they have all been top scoring dogs. With not a single failure. Now honestly i have had some go to hunters who werent satisfied for one reason or another. I don't see any point in breeding hounds that dont perform and i am always interested in how every dog ive produced does.
The only solid difference ive been able to really pinpoint besides species of game. Is the handling of the dogs. Theres obviously scent differences. However i know three prison teams and atleast two search teams train nearly exclusively on low elevation desert floor terrain here in az. Which is difficult conditions. However i think the fact the dogs are handled in a uniform manner with daily training and with "real tracks" with specified time lapses or age of track gives a good deal of information. Ofcourse track accurracy is valued higher then in many hunting scenarios. Dogs obviously are absolutely not allowed to switch track. And track speed must be consistently above the times produced by the runner laying the track to approximate over taking a escapee. Im not aware if this is graded in search and rescue scenarios.
I initially had some concerns . 1 the high level of control and handling expected. 2. Trash breaking or game proofing. 3. They are competing with vastly different types of dogs.
Malinois,shepherds, collies,labs,retrivers and bloodhounds. Honestly i had no idea how it would all pan out. But I am glad i went with the oppurtunity and feel it teaches me things i probably wouldnt have learned hunting. And one thing i feel is important to remember is our dogs are much more adept at handling change then we are often times. Another is if theres one type of dog that just seems to suit a person best theyre better off sticking to that in most cases. But that isnt to say a different style in another handlers hands might not perform the job better in some way. And finally dont be shy about asking more from your dogs if your also willing to put the work in to teach/explain whats expected.
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Re: Split Race

Postby pegleg » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:50 am

Walkerdirt. David is correct in considering the dog opening on the same spot a fault. I myself dont consider it a "cold nosed" trait but believe its more closely related to some types of false treeing. Either way the results the same the dogs hampering the hunt. One of two things is likely to happen the other dogs will keep responding to him or eventually begin to completely ignore him. I dont have any magic advice. Given you feel green its hard to really be confident and make a decision on things as they happen. If you have the time it might be best for you and the hounds if you hunt them seperately a bit until they have proven to your satisfaction what type and quality of dog they are. Then you will be more comfortable in making those decisions.
Set your expectations and go out and make each dog prove its capable of delivering. Have fun and good luck
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Re: Split Race

Postby lawdawgharris » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:19 am

Peg leg, I couldn't agree more about breed hounds (dogs) that don't perform up to snuff. And I especially agree with the opinion of handlers and handling being a huge factor in the success or failure of a high percentage of dogs. To me Walkerdirt, you have something very valuable at your disposal. It's you ability to be honest about what your dogs are or what they are doing and you aren't too proud to ask questions. You will be successful as long as you remain that way. Pay close attention to some of those what seem smaller details, like your pup nearly going to the silent dog a few times but being suckered back by the open dog. Kennel blindness is hunting death and breeding death more times than not. Good luck bud

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Re: Split Race

Postby 1bludawg » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:06 am

One of the most difficult tasks a beginning houndman should learn is the need to cull.
Give your dog a good chance to make the grade but when they start showing an obvious fault it's time for them to go.
If you want to catch game you have to make some hard decisions. If you just enjoy being outdoors culling is not so critical.
Get some pups from some good cat dogs that are balanced and you'll enjoy your hunts more and catch game.
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Re: Split Race

Postby Bluedog88 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:33 am

Nice to know I'm not the only one.........overthinking what happened or what could of happened or if there's something I should or done or not done. Helps me to sleep at night remembering what my mentor said "trust your dogs" what's even harder is trying to explain all this to a non bobcat hunter and all you get back is "you caught one?"
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Re: Split Race

Postby not color blind » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:52 am

Walkerdirt, are the dogs multipurpose dogs or straight cat dogs?
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Re: Split Race

Postby Walkerdirt » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:44 pm

not color blind wrote:Walkerdirt, are the dogs multipurpose dogs or straight cat dogs?


Definitely multipurpose. I'd like to catch a few lions for the trophy room one day and help out with depredation work too but right now I'm just learning hounds. I'm mostly free casting dogs so when a race starts it takes a minute for me to start guessing what it is. I'm hoping to get some snow trips in this winter to light the fire on lion tracks. I'm down south so everything I do is in the dirt.
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Re: Split Race

Postby Walkerdirt » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:04 pm

So getting back to the original story on my post and my silent dog pushing the track on his own. A few days after the hunt I noticed some scabs on his neck. There were 4 perfect teeth marks...bobber sized. I cleaned up the wound but didn't think much of it and wasn't sure if it was actually a cat bite. Well long story short it got infected and I had to put him on antibiotics. I'm pretty sure he caught the cat and got his but whipped.

Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Split Race

Postby oneguy828 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:38 am

Sometimes there is an addition by subtraction.

Taking a dog out of the mix can really help define things. But I would strongly advise you not to trust your dogs but to always question and overanalyze them. Dogs can’t lie but they can do a damn good job of makin a liar out of us!

If you trust them and they are right big whoop. Trust them and they are wrong and you could have the start of many disasters!

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