Kidney failure

Talk about Big Game Hunting with Dogs
Toolman94
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby Toolman94 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:50 pm

But probably more guys around here using Cattle tags


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perk
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby perk » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:18 pm

I think those tags and that admire cant be good for them, even tho I'm guilty of using both before. Admire and its predecessors could kill a man or seriously harm if alot was inhaled and those cattle tags we used for ticks are dosed for 1000lb cattle. I try not to use anymore. Cant be good for a 50lb dogs health... or so I think
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby Codyking » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:59 pm

Ivomec will kill their kidneys quick. And it will happen about 5 years old. 2/10 of cc is what we use down here every summer month. Every other month in winter. We have mosquito bad and we use it for heart wormer. It doesn’t take much. I have had some vets say high protein food doesn’t help either. Purina Pro Plan is bad for kidneys they say.....but that maybe because they want to sell something else. I would definitely cut you ivomec down a bunch. Like in half and every other month or a tiny amount every month. Too much ivomec is a lesson I learned the hard way
Goose
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby Goose » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:08 pm

perk wrote:I think those tags and that admire cant be good for them, even tho I'm guilty of using both before. Admire and its predecessors could kill a man or seriously harm if alot was inhaled and those cattle tags we used for ticks are dosed for 1000lb cattle. I try not to use anymore. Cant be good for a 50lb dogs health... or so I think



Perk you’re absolutely right about the cow tags, and most use an entire tag on a single dog, they’re constantly being poisoned the entire time they have them on, the poison used in them absorbs into their blood stream over prolonged exposure and wreaks havoc on the bodies filters (kidneys and liver) eventually leading to overwhelming them which leads to failure, not to mention those dogs that chew on anything will chew on the other dogs tags, to many people over use worm medications, which does the same thing to the body as the tags, factor in most conventional dry kibbles and the chemicals mixed into them along with the high protein content and the organs never catch a break which leads to early death, in the summer months when it gets hot running a dog who isn’t conditioned to it to hard to often will damage the kidneys beyond repair as well, I can’t understand why most hunters don’t carry fresh clean water in their rigs while hunting, I know those same guys can’t go work and do their jobs all day long without taking a water break, if you have to do a lot of driving over long periods of time stop and let your dogs piss, a lot of dogs won’t piss or crap in the box, pissing is the body’s way of extracting the impurities and toxins that the kidneys filter out, if left cooped up where they won’t piss for lengths at a time that’s leaving all the toxins in the kidneys and bladder, all this possibilities seem like minuscule details to most but when you start coupling and adding them all together they can and will become deadly, another thing thats often overlooked is a lot of hounds men have automatic watering systems, they are convenient and handy but you don’t know how much or less your dog is drinking water, dogs with developing kidney problems will drink more than normal, but you have no way of knowing how much with the auto system, with buckets or containers the amount of water consumed can be monitored and watched and vise versa, dehydration is just as deadly and w/o someway to monitor fluid intake we may never know there’s a problem until it’s to far along....


Our best bets are to go as close to natural and holistic as possible in the healthcare of our hounds, I’m all for conventional de wormers but believe they are way over used, try taking different approach by maintain a clean environment for your hounds to live in, worms are passed through fecal matter, clean behind your hounds as often as possible, research all the different natural ways to rid your dogs of parasites, there’s a lot of different herbs and plants that are natural pesticides, I’m not saying they should take the place of de worming your dogs but can reduce the frequency of their use, also there’s a big stigma that the higher the protein content of a kibble the better it must be for our dogs and gives them energy , that’s partially true but also a great sales pitch, energy comes from calories and carbohydrates, a higher fat content diet is better than a high protein diet, if your not hunting your hounds hard and regular then a basic maintenance kibble is way better on them than a high performance high protein diet, just somethings to factor and consider in regards to our hounds health...
johnadamhunter
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby johnadamhunter » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:28 pm

Let’s add another dimension to this subject..... what about pets or non working dogs? Are they dying from kidney failure as often? Just off the top of my head I’d say not nearly as often. I use the same meds (chemicals) on both at my house.


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pegleg
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby pegleg » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:13 am

Kidney failure due to dehydration is pretty hard to accomplish on dogs in shape. Constant exposure to chemicals is more likely. Protein can cause some issues IF the kidneys are already weakened. But ive seen dogs fed meat and dogs fed fish and health wise its pretty impressive.
I would look for genetic or chemical causes first.

As a side note purified water isnt such a great idea if your dogs are working hard in heat. Unrelated but crossed my mind
macedonia mule man
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby macedonia mule man » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:13 am

Dogs will drink out of any kind of mud hole or polluted water which goes through the kidney. Talked to a vet about how much urin a dog can drink and he said it unblieveable. I’ve seen them drink their fill out of black/bluestump hole water in August full of what ever. I bet if you had some way to keep a record it would show that run loose dogs and hunting dogs that are hunted a lot have kidney failure the most. Bottom line, keep a few coming on you are going to lose some.
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby scrubrunner » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:42 am

Mule man, there used to be a stump in my dog yard that held water. I regularly saw dogs drinking that black, tepid, nasty looking stump water with a bathtub full of fresh, clear, cool water 75 feet away.
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby al baldwin » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:44 pm

Peg just curious why you think purified water is not a good idea? Years ago owned dog that developed kidney issues, vet ask if I used potable water at the kennel. I said yes, he stated better not to in his opinion. Puzzled me then & now. Al
perk
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby perk » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:39 pm

Scrubb, that’s a funny observation, I have far more often seen mine walk past puddles and such to get to my truck to drink fresh water from bucket, even when hot and tired they seem to pass up dirty water. Funny the things we notice our dogs do
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macedonia mule man
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby macedonia mule man » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:17 pm

Perk, I’ve seen mine drink out of the road ditch, jump in the truck and drink out of the water bucket. Most all mine stick their head in the water bucket every time they load. I believe it’s a habit with mine, don’t know about yours. I’m surprised a hunting dog last over two years. They drink anything,eat anything will do most anything and never show much caution when hunting. Just an accident waiting to happen.
Toolman94
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby Toolman94 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:38 pm

That sure sounds about right!!!


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lawdawgharris
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby lawdawgharris » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:58 am

There's another factor about feed or protein. High protein if too high, can be a contributor but unusable proteins are worse. If the bulk or the main protein source of a feed is unusable then it has to be gotten rid of. It takes things like calcium for the kidney to be able to break down the excess protein and get rid of it. If they aren't getting enough calcium in their diet then it takes calcium from the bone. The muscles and organs also need calcium to function properly. If it takes every bit of available calcium to shed excess protein then those other areas are suffering. It also takes more water. Many dog foods, high protein or not, have accurate protein percentages listed. What they don't list is the usable protein. Just because a dog will eat it doesn't mean it's good for him. Chicken feathers are extremely high in protein. The problem is that even ground up and cooked, a dog can't digest them. It isn't a usable protein and that's a big part of poultry by products listed in the first 4 or 5 ingredients of so many feeds. I know a lot of folks use to cook mash for their hounds which usually had a ton of corn and other grains in it. Grains are another protein source that are very hard for a dog to digest. More times than not you can still see large quantities of corn in their stool. They just can't break it down in a useful productive way. Grains also produce toxins that ar bad for dogs. It wasn't that long ago that drought raised grains were used in feeds and had to be recalled because the alpha toxins they produced were killing dogs. Soy can be broken down and is a usable protein but it creates other issues. It produces a chemical that the body confuses for estrogen. This can cause the menstrual cycle of females to be irregular be it timing, or the severity of the cycle. It affects males as well. Meat source proteins are always your safest best source for protein. Plus you get something for your money. With the others, you more or less pay to watch them pass it without using it so your money is laying in the yard or the kennel floor. Soaking feed the day before, the day of, and the day after a hunt is always a good way to help get extra fluids in your dogs. I knew a man that carried a bucket of feed and a bucket of water with him to feed. Every dog got a cup of water in their feed bowl with dry kibble poured in it every feeding. They would clean up every bit of feed and water. He said dogs never drank enough.

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macedonia mule man
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby macedonia mule man » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:49 am

Law, at the start of commercial dog food, the main ingredient was meat/ bone meal and corn. Sometime, I think in the late 50s they found the protein could br raised using soybean meal. This formula lasted for a good while till somebody decided soybean meal bothered the reproductive cycle,and corn ,(while it didn’t cause a dog to have skin problems) it aggrivated the problem. Now, I think the fact of the matter is commercial dog food doesn’t cause anything to happen to a dog, it’s there through inheritance. If you could help a record of how many hunting dogs there are starting today and record for 10 yrs ,you would have a very low % amount die from kidney failure. No more than any other such as heart, lung or any other. The smart way to feed dogs is to use the feed with the highest TOTAL DIGESTIABLE NUTRENCE ( TDN) and figure the feed price by the ounce not the bag. It’s possible to cut the amount you feed by 30/50% and still get the same results with less clean up. There again forget about what’s going to happen to your dog if you do this or that or if he does this or that. I leaving in just a minute to try to find one that’s been stranded in back water and want swin out. It gets aggravating and expensive, but it’s fun.
lawdawgharris
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Re: Kidney failure

Postby lawdawgharris » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:47 am

I was thinking about this issue and remembered something I read by a vet. You folks may or may not use a flea/tick medicine but it was talking about the use of them along with the use of Ivomec within 30 days of one another. He STRONGLY advised not use the 2 within this time frame of one another because of the possibility of kidney damage. Just something else to consider.

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