What makes a true “dog man/ woman/ hunter”

[Renagade Curs]

Scrubrunner about going to your dogs when you were needing comfort from life's stress I've often done the same thing just sit with them sometimes for hours in bad times...

[Rowdy Fitz]

Mule Man: I have been thinking about that quite a bit. I think the biggest factor of a dog rigging from the box but not from the rigging rack could just be the way scent is rising that day (due to many factors) and how far the dog’s nose is from the ground. If it’s cold and the scent is hanging low, a dog up on the rig rack just might not get any scent.

[macedonia mule man]

Like I mentioned about 50% of my dogs just naturally rig out of the box. My old female is an American fox hound out of Kiln Ms. 13 yrs now and I quit hunting her and she was natural. She started all the younger dogs to rig. I really don’t depend on that to start game, I really like to trot a road to start game. 95 % of the critters they take out of the road they gonna jump and run. My rigging is not close to that good.

[Renagade Curs]

Mule Man there different breeds of American Foxhound and hundreds of different lines amongst the breeds. Just the lines in the breeds can be as different as night and day. Now days Western bred dogs are crossed with the southern dogs and even the breeds are crossed amongst each other but even 15-20 years ago it was still considered blasphemy among most of the southern old timers. You have Walker, July, Goodman, Trigg a lot of the other breeds are probably about gone. When I was a teenager there was still a few hold outs trying to keep the almost extinct breeds alive and pure but there just wasn't enough left I'd say they're about all gone. Hudspeth, Buckfield, Calhoun, Trumbo, Spaulding-Norris, and some others I use to know them all I think there was 16 strains or different breeds that were recognized amongst the Americans Foxhound at one time. Some were already absorbed by the more popular breeds when I was just a small child. I guess to outsiders they are considered one breed under the name of the American Foxhound but it couldn't be farther from the truth. July breeders have the July National Field Trial, dogs entered have to be at least 3/4 July to participate its held in different places. The actual National Foxhunters Field Trial is a all breed field trial held in Grenada, MS but July breeders usually refer to it as the Walker National because generally the majority entered are Running Walker hounds. The National Field Trial is held in conjunction with the Chase Futurity all in the same week every fall. There is also a Trigg National Field Trial still and there use to be a Goodman National also but idk if it's still going on or not. It's sad to know some of the old breeds went extinct or were absorbed by the other breeds in a way but I guess that's the way of things. What I'm calling Western bred hounds were the hounds bred west of the Mississippi but East of the Rocky Mountains. They were bred for coyotes instead of foxes there is even Western bred July hounds and Southern bred July hounds. When I was a small kid there was German bred July hounds they were brindle in color and heavier boned than other July hounds. Today you can still find some of them but they don't look like they did 30+ years ago they look more like other July hounds in bone structure but some of them are still brindle colored. I always suspected they probably had some of the Plott families hounds in them way back but idk if that's the case or not. The other Western dogs were mostly crossbred hounds amongst everything in the American Foxhound mostly Walker and July but others to. When I was younger they usually had lots of speed but some of them wouldn't run but 1.5 hours before they quit or run out of gas they didn't have much endurance. But they have really improved them since I was a child and even since just 10-15 years ago they've improved in my opinion. Many of of the Southern bred dogs have went down hill because they're no longer ran in the wild and are only ran in training enclosures or Fox Pens as they're called but the majority of them have just coyotes in them now days. They recently reopened a pen just 25 miles from me that hadn't been in operation in over a decade. The guys I use to run hounds with and compete against in field trials been after me to come judge hunts at that pen. Also the guys I use to coyote hunt with in the wild are always after me to get coyote hounds again and start back to hunting with them. I had completely different sets of hounds for the most part between the dogs I competed with and the ones I coyote hunted with although I did have a few I could do both with dogs I hunted in the wild with required better handling and manners than the ones I field trialed. I'd often haul my field trial hounds for pack dogs to feed into a coyote race tho. I've rambled long enough for tonight I'm headed to bed...

[SASS]

There are dogs that rig and then there is a rig dog. Very different in my opinion.

I have one rig dog right now and a few dogs that will rig. If she rigs we are almost always going to have a race. We jump more rigged tracks then we do tracks started from roading. Probably because in most cases she will not rig a real old track where when I have them on the ground sometimes they will try to work out too old of a track. Also never had the issue with rigging off the box vs in the box. I would guess it is either the conditions like pressure and humidity or maybe the dog doesn't like being on the box.

Back to the topic; I don't think you can be a true dogman if you don't take great care of the dogs regardless of how much game you catch. If you catch a ton of game but your dogs are poor and kept in sorry conditions then you might be a good hunter but not a very good dogman IMO.

[macedonia mule man]

We do take a lot of hot tracks from the road, which is ok. I like to take a track from the road for about 1/4 mile with 10-12 dogs just pecking here and there and then one steps on it. That makes my day.

[macedonia mule man]

Renagade, a fellow gave me a big red- white ring neck running dog that had been started and ran in nothing but a fox pen. It took him about 6 months to settle down and make a really good dog. He could carry on a fox race by himself.he was a little wide and fast but could get back on track as good as a track running dog. I bought a female to breed with one of my dogs and after I had her about a month I noticed she had already been bred when I bought her. Called the ole boy and he had no idea what she was bred to. She had 11 pups and raised all. I kept 3 and one went AWOL, have no idea where. The other two are doing as well as you would expect 16 month old dogs to do. The dogs around here are pretty well fixed in traits to hunt and run something, I don’t know what the fellows were trying to keep back in the day but what I see now for the most part , I like and have pretty good luck with them turning out. What more can you ask of a dog but consistently trail, jump, and run a good race?

[Renagade Curs]

Not all hounds pen sour forever but a lot do I've had many that never wanted to do anything but run the road until they cut in front of the hounds actually running the game then they run the track until the game turns hit a road again and repeat never changed. Things I consider... Do hounds openly cold trail or do they drift a track and bark here and there until they jump? Myself I prefer a hound that drifts a cold track and only barks here and there. Are they fast track running hounds or do they have another gear in the open there's a extreme amount of difference in hound speed? I can't stand slow hounds and there's many different types of speed I've seen hounds that were really fast track running hounds in brush and rough country but I'd take them to over in southwest Missouri on the open row crop ground where dogs have to use their eyes more than their noses and they might be 2 sections behind. And even once they learn to use their eyes they may never have that sight speed it takes there. And I have friends that have hounds that can do it in both places open or brush. Here I prefer that dog with a good nose and extra fast track speed and brains enough to use the nose. Do they swing wide when they make a loose or hunt tight trying to pick it back up? Myself I like hounds that swing pretty wide on a loose if they don't pick it back up quick close. I don't like a hound that opens after they've made a loose until they're back tight to their game again. I really like a hound that will pull their mouth and maybe double or triple up on their pulling it when they pickup a loose. Will they get rough on their game and pull hair if game tries to stop on them or will they quit and go find something else? Will they stay after the animal they've jumped originally or switch off, if they cross another animal's track? That is a terrible problem now days with running hounds they switch game to much. In order to catch a coyote or a bobcat or even make a big smart old buck make a mistake if your a deer dogger hounds have to keep pressure on the animal they originally jumped. If a dog switches game every time they cross a new animals track even if it's the desired species they cannot keep the desired pressure on the original animal... What type of a mouth does a hound have? I've had hounds that were decent hounds but they had mouths you couldn't hear or tell in a pack I will get rid of a hound that has a mouth that doesn't suit me. I prefer hounds with big mouths (coarse chop, squall, crying mouth or clear chop mouths some people call what I call a clear mouth a beagle or a hooting mouth. I also really like a turkey mouth hound. I do not like fine mouthed hounds (high pitched chop) I have friends that prefer them but I don't. There are many things to consider besides just trail, jump, and run a good race.

[SASS]

Renegade I watch hounds like you do and like a lot of the same things. Ol Lawdog and I was talking about some of these things the other day. The two biggest race killers when your chasing cats in my opinion is constantly overrunning tracks and barking out of place. Nothing makes me more mad then dogs barking out of place. I want my dogs to be honest with their mouths. I am not as concerned with the types of mouths they have as much as I am about them knowing when to use them.

Renegade there used to be some good July hounds out in Missouri do you still see any of them around?

[Renagade Curs]

There is still some really good July hounds in my area I know or knew all of the July breeders in the State since I was a kid until now unless they're relative new comers to it. The Piatts and their family and friends I grew up around them use to hunt with them all the time they hunt right here where I live now or just north and east of here still in radio range I listen to them on the radio all the time. Whitey Turner hunts here some he lives about a hour and a half east of me he's always had good July hounds he use to win field trials all over I use to compete against him years ago. Whitey hunts alot with Matt Stahl on the outside near Popular Bluff. Matt is Benji Stahl's older brother I grew up competing against them and their little brother Tyler in field trials. They use to have outstanding hounds. Also Kearby's are from the same area as the Stahl's and Whitey idk if they still have hounds or not I haven't seen them in years but I grew up competing against them and use to consider them friends they were good houndsmen always competitive had fine hounds as good as anyone better than most. Charlie Walker lives about 30 minutes from me idk what he has now days but he's had some good hounds in the past he still has hounds I know. Scott Lanham had as good of hounds as anyone on this continent. He use to win the $10,000 speed and drive money hunts or place in them as consistently as anyone and place hounds in and win 2 and 3 day hunts. He knew how to condition a hound for certain hunts or pens before most people and long before me. My dad and Scott worked together in the same mine when I was a kid. I've known Scott and his sons the better part of my life. Scott gave up hunting and hounds about 10 years ago, gave them to his oldest son JR and his middle boy Brent they compete still and do well in hunts yet. Wayne Stump I use to know him and I'm good friends with a guy that use to hunt with him weekly. I need to ask Zack how Wayne is or if he's still kicking. Wayne got rid of his hounds about a decade ago his health was getting bad. I gave a really good looking black and tan hound good running hound to a friend of mine recently that was the only one I had left out of this last bunch of hounds I had and he was the best of this last bunch I had. He has a coarse chop mouth he will really pull it on pickups like I was talking about and a really good hound has speed nose brains, he went back to Waynes hounds. I still have his papers. I been kicking around getting him back my friend said I could always get him back if I wanted him back but I also know he doesn't want to give him up he's better then the rest of what he's feediing. He's not full July about 3/4 I think and goes back to some of the old German July hounds I spoke of. I think Joe and Steve King still have hounds they've had some good ones in the past I've known them most of my life. I'm sure I'm missing someone but it's getting late I think I'm gonna hit the bed...

[Renagade Curs]

There is still have some really good July hounds in my area. I know or knew all of the July breeders in the State since I was a kid until now unless they're relative new comers to it. The Piatts and their family and friends I grew up around them use to hunt with them all the time weekly sometimes multi weekly. They hunt right here where I live now or just north and east of here on the other side of the river. Still in radio range I listen to them on the radio all the time. Whitey Turner hunts here some he lives about a hour and a half east of me he's always had good July hounds I'm sure he still does. He use to win field trials all over the US, I use to compete against him years ago. Whitey hunts alot with Matt Stahl on the outside near Popular Bluff they catch about 100 coyotes a year I think usually. Matt is Benji Stahl's older brother I grew up competing against them and their little brother Tyler in field trials. They use to have outstanding hounds. Also Kearby's are from the same area as the Stahl's and Whitey idk if they still have hounds or not I haven't seen them in years but I grew up competing against them and use to consider them friends. They were good houndsmen always competitive had fine hounds as good as anyone better than most. Charlie Walker lives about 30 minutes from me idk what he has now days but he's had some good hounds in the past he still has hounds I know. Scott Lanham had as good of hounds as anyone on this continent in the past. He use to win the big 1 day speed and drive money hunts or place in them as consistently as anyone and place hounds in and win 2 and 3 day hunts. He knew how to condition a hound for certain hunts or pens before most people and long before me. My dad and Scott worked together in the same mine when I was a kid same mine my dad worked at when he got killed going to work. I've known Scott and his sons the better part of my life. Scott gave up hunting and hounds about 10 years ago, gave them to his oldest son JR and his middle boy Brent they compete still and do well in hunts yet. Wayne Stump I use to know him and I'm good friends with a guy that use to hunt with him all the time they caught a lot of coyotes Wayne did well in speed and drive hunts always had fast houmds. I need to ask Zack how Wayne is or if he's still kicking. Wayne got rid of his hounds about a decade ago his health was getting bad. I gave a really good looking black and tan hound to a friend of mine recently that was the only one I had left out of this last bunch of hounds I had and he was the best of this last bunch I had. He has a coarse chop mouth he will really pull it on pickups like I was talking about and he has speed nose and brains. He can run a red fox like he's tied to it there's several dens of foxes right here where I live, he went back to Waynes hounds I still have his papers my buddy doesn't care about papers neither do I really anymore but I like to know hounds bloodlines at least and see dogs I hunted with in their background. I been kicking around getting him back my friend he said still says I could always get him back if I wanted him back but I also know he doesn't want to give him up he's better then the rest of what he's feediing. He's not full July about 3/4 I think and goes back to some of the old German July hounds I spoke of way way back. I think Joe and Steve King still have hounds they've had some good ones in the past I've known them most of my life. Howard Owen and Allen Hyer use to raise some really good July hounds Howards still kicking has hounds I think I ain't seen him a couple years I haven't seen Allen in years they lived up north of St Louis. I'm sure I'm missing someone but it's getting late I think I'm gonna hit the bed...

[Rowdy Fitz]

A good dog man? Hell there’s people out there that don’t even know what a man is, let alone a canine - homo sapien!

But I think I’m going to have to say that a dog man is someone who is:
•Good to their dogs.
•Pays attention to what their dogs are doing and learns or understands why they’re doing it.
•Strives to better the breed and breeds for a purpose (doesn’t breed just to sell).
•Someone who has dedicated their life or a significant amount of it to working the breed they chose.
• Someone that knows when to cull because it’s the right thing to do.
There’s more but that’s the one’s that come to mind right now.

[macedonia mule man]

Renagade, what do you consider a slow hound?

[perk]

I used to think I knew what makes a houndsmen, however ideas change all the time in this buisness. A houndsmen to some seems be anyone with a Tacoma, aluminum box, Garmin and a Facebook page. And who am I to say they are wrong.

Agree with Sass that over running and barking out of place can hurt a chance of catching game easily, also like to add to that dogs that don't shut up pull up to the front dogs in the pack, (so barking out of place but different than babbling which is what I think of immediately with barking out of place) constant pressure kills game!

Mule man that big red hound that ran fast and made misses, even if he picks them back up how was it affecting the outcome of the race? A 5-10 second break can be the difference between a caught piece of game or game in the tree, hole, or keeping a lead.

Enjoyed reading everyone's ideas
Happy Hunting
Perk

[macedonia mule man]

Perk, I run 3/4 - 7/8 walker to 1/4- 1/8 beagle, the red dog didn’t really affect the out come. He stretched the race out over 1/4 mile but the rest of the pack followed and barked. I would cut them off, pick ole red up and the pack went on like nothing happened. I gave him away because I didn’t want to take the time trying to find 5-6 more like him. He was definitely a good fox dog.