Question for Dads dog boy

[sdred]

How far north have any of your dogs or dogs like your guys gone, I know you don't sell very many and sounds like you really try to fit them, but I was just reading some other posts and was wondering if ya had any one try your style of hounds in the snow or high plains just curious. Not trying to buy a dog was just very curious. Was also wondering if taken north as a pup and hunted with track-tree style dogs if they would adapt and keep the speed style of trailing.

[Dads dogboy]

Sdred,

Thanks for the question!

The answer is that yes Dad has had some Pups go North.

There is a friend of Dads from PA who lurks around on here who Dad gave two pups to for him to run Fox with. If Tony reads this maybe he will come on and tell how well or not they performed in the Dead of Winter in deep Snow pushing the Reds and Yotes to the Gun.

Also Dads Hounds are no different from any others in that the “Style” and “Environment” that they are started and trained in will dictate they way in which they will hunt to some extent. As we have stated elsewhere Sotexcathunter is one of the 5 Hunters who have Dads Hounds. In S. Texas you need a more “trailing” type hound rather than a “cunning running” type.

This is dictated by the cover and terrain that the Hunter and Hounds have to deal with. 8 years ago Dad gave Mike a litter mate to Redcloud, Ruby, Chief, and Queen. Mike hunted her hard with his pack and she made a hell of a hound, just like her sibs; but with an entirely different “Style”. She trailed more and was much more methodical than Dads Hounds, not bad just different and much more fitting to the area and style hunted!

Mr. Jerry King has had a couple of Dads Hounds in Northern CA. He also hunts in the semi-desert country in Southern CA. These Hounds have produced game there for him.

Are these “Go Anywhere” hunt “Anything” Hounds absolutely not! But in the hands of a Houndsman and given the proper guidance and hunted hard they will produce Game.

Hope this helps, always feel free to ask. I do not mind the open forum as others may have the same questions. Pegleg and I have been carrying on a great correspondence on Genetics and breeding that I sometimes wish we could bring into the regular forum.

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[david]

[david]

Correction: go to the last pm received, and then go down to "message history" then drag (highlight) the whole thing, go to edit: copy. Go start a new topic, go back to edit: paste. It's pretty slick. Just takes a few seconds

Man anything you guys want to bring forth for the good of the brotherhood, we wait on the edge of our seats...

[pegleg]

I wouldn't worry to much about my side of the conversation. I was just asking about the methods they used for selection of foundation hounds and cleaning up the blood lines while maintaining genetic diversity to the point that its possible to carry on breeding their line of hounds with out inbreeding to the point of collapsing. and what hounds they had selected to use as out crosses and how big the support group of hunters where they had helping hunt and stock pile their hounds, blood and genetic material. I also asked if there had been semen collected on their males. as with any family line there is a chance of sudden regression in some way and with the short life span of hounds it could easily be that a family could collapse with out the ability to go back in genes far enough to salvage it. this often happens when people are starting a breed or trying to save one there just isn't enough diversity to work. I believe line breeding and inbreeding are required to a certain extent to develop and maintain a breed continual outcrossing does nothing but lower the genetic compatibility of individuals. I may have asked some other semi intelligent questions but doubt it. the Clays have put a enormous amount of time, effort and thought into every step of their hound program as their success points out. Their love and hard work should be a model for all houndsmen to follow in their own endeavors. Mr clay and his partners have truly earned every bit of enjoyment they receive from his hounds. building a line of hounds takes a huge amount of resources that few individuals have the ability to provide. The thorough hunting and testing/selection of each hound alone makes this impossible with out the ability to persuade others to see the merit of your plans and agree to work with you. If every strain of hounds where developed with this amount of thoroughness, new houndsmen would have little difficulty in selecting a breeder or strain to start with and dog "trading" would be a different game altogether. I hope Mr. Clay is able to see his current plans for his hounds through to the finish.

[pegleg]

I thought I'd add this. I don't think very many people put much thought to the tremendous amount of dna that has to be lined up correctly in a hound for it to perform the jobs the way we ask it in the manner we expect. Dogs are intelligent animals and can learn a good deal the problem is that if you have to teach a hound every little aspect of its job your going to spend a long time getting there and the dog will only turn into as good a hound as we have the ability as trainers to make it. the attributes that make up a hound are many. it's not just a dog that has a good sense of smell or has floppy ears. By the time we could get this dog TRAINED to do what we want its usable life would be considerable shortened along with your patience. so if you can start picking and choosing the dna and putting them into one final package so that pup has the building blocks to do its job you shorten and lessen the training. now you just have to awaken those abilities and desires. After someone else has put all that time and work into building that genetic package many hunters decide that they will mix it with a different package. Which is ok IF you need something else and IF you put the time and thought into it the original breeder did. luckily the same traits that make a walker a good bear dog are sometimes the same ones that make a bluetick a good bear dog etc. However it's much easier to use what already works and try your hardest to keep it working and if it just happens to be possible improve it a bit for the next guy.

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

Dad has been breeding this line of Hounds since 1968, however the line Breeding of the Line started in the late 50’s by the Monroe Bro.s of East Texas. They were neighbors and friends of Hinckle Schillings the breeder of Ch. Mark S.. They liked the way this hound handled a Grey Fox or Red, his nose and mouth were only surpassed by his Brains. Mark S. passed this on to his offspring in a big way as for years he was the Top Sire of Grey?Red Fox Hounds back when a Field Trail judges hounds as they should be as opposed to today’s Speed and Drive only.

Dad bought a bitch from the Monroe’s who had Mark S. as one grandfather and Great grand father three times. He bred her to an Own son of Mark S. whose mother was a daughter and granddaughter of Mark S. as well. These Hounds were bred tight but performed well. Culling before and after Dad started was ruthless. The first mating produced 7 puppies all of whom made 1st Class Bobcat hounds with all the traits that Mark S. expressed so well.

Dad then worked other Mark S. Hounds into the program over the years. There was Mr. Mel Clark in WV who had Hounds bred this way closer than Dads also Mr Clifford Clarke in Culpepper VA who had bred a Hound named Gangster Jake (carried Mark S. several times in a 3 generation pedigree) who was a top Hound and Sire of Top Hounds, all of these were Grey/Red Fox Hounds. These were the only Outcross Hounds that Dad brought into the program till 2001 when he bought and bred to a Hound out of GA who was tight bred Mark S. on the Top side and closely line bred Liquor on the bottom.( the important thing not being the Liquor breeding but the fact that it was close line breeding).

All of this close breeding (but never full sibs or Mother x Son, only Aunts to nephews and Uncles to nieces, rarely a Father to Daughter to check for problem recessive genes) kept a narrow gene pool for traits that Dad feels are a Must Have for Bobcat Hounds: Brains, Nose, Brains, Bid-ability, Brains, and Mouth! As you can see Brains are foremost in what he is trying to replicate in each mating, in Bobcat Hounds. A Dumb Hound = few successful Hunts! God gave a Bobcat a Bain instead of Lungs so a Hound better have one too.

The Father x Daughter cross is made about every third generation to make sure that the line has no problem with faults from recessive genes for behavioral, structural, or Mental problems. To date none have cropped out. This is probably due to the RUTHLESS Culling that took place early on, illeminating problems from the Gene Pool.

We are on the 15th and 19th generations on the two lines that Dad has kept going. We are going to have to use a Full Sib mating this year to keep one of the Tale Female lines going as several untimely deaths have brought that line to an end with out this. Also we are evaluating the Irish Hound to use as an Outcross but that will be a separate breeding program till we see if the F2’s reproduce properly, then those Hounds (F3’s) will be incorporated into the Clay Hound Line.

We have semen collected and stored on Two top Hounds that will be used 5 to 10 years down the road on the Outcross Lines and back on these two Hounds Granddaughters (this is a mating cross GF to GD that has worked well in the past).

Dad has been fortunate to have several close friends to give his older Hounds to (Dad retires Hounds from his pack at 6 yrs past as the Young Hounds put too much pressure on them) and two hard Hunters who have helped to evaluate the Young Hounds. These Men not only hunt hard but are Houndsmen in every sense of the word and Hunt in Dads style. We are currently working up the plans to create a legal entity to keep the Hounds alive after Dad is gone with the 5 Hunters who have these Hounds now. As you can see @ 80 Dad has breeding plans for the next 10 to 15 years already in place to perpetuate this line of Hounds.

We just hope and pray that we all are able to Hunt Hounds in 2025!

Hope this Helps, Always Glad to try and answer questions!

CJC

[pegleg]

how many living Clay hounds are on the ground right now? over eighteen months of age.

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

There are 68 give or take one or two as I have just driven 813 miles and have been up 26 hours.

There are also 14 under the 18 month age with another 6 being 36 hours old.

Having said all this there are only 4 prospective breeding bitches and three prospective breeding males at this time. There are two proven Studs who have been used about all that they will be for now (we have semen on them) and three proven Bitches, however one of the Bitches is now sterile.

Both the remaining bitches are about past the optimum age for whelping, the one just whelped and this will be her last litter. She has proved the old "Hunters" tale of not making the same cross again wrong, her 12 month old pups are as good as the three year olds were at that age. (When someone tells you that their pups are as good as their older Hounds in Dads book they are not bragging on their Pups but telling you how.....their old Dogs are!)

Dad has proven this wrong on numerous occasions by making the same cross as many as three times. Having a limited gene pool may be a factor in this repeated matings working?

Dad is very hard on just who he will consider using. He judges the weaknesses or faults that a Hound may have quite harshly. A Hound may be a super nice Hound himself but may have some little something that subjectively causes Dad to disqualify him or her as a Breeding canidate.

Dad always tells other Houndsmen to look hard at the little "faults" that a Hound may have, no matter how small...to not worry or get excited about the GOOD things the Hound does...he says those good things will take care of themselves!

Sorry about rambling way past the answer you were looking for~

CJC

[pegleg]

thats ok it also answered the question more in depth. 26 hours huh? and so much fun I personally don't last 16 before go out.

[Dads dogboy]

Pegleg,

Could you please post the reply PM I sent you on the crossing the Irish Hound into the line. I erased it by mistake.

Thanks!

CJC

[Dads dogboy]

Here is an exchange that I thought was appropriate over here as well.

CJC

pegleg Post subject: Re: SOUTHERN STYLE CAT DOG FOR SALEPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:21 pm
State: SE.AZ I agree seeing a full bred running catdog work in my area would be something worth taking some notes and observations on. I am sure it would work after a fashion its just getting them to warm the tracks up in the first place. training pups could be real hard getting them to slow down and take enough cold tracks to get the experience would be hard. I wouldn't say it wouldn't work though desire is a big motivator. Has anyone run running dogs on bobcat in the desert?

I wanted to answer on this topic" but " I didn't want to butcher the mans add for trying to sale his cat hound. I believed this is another topic, and didn't want to take the focus off his hound for sale.
I have never ran a full running hound in the desert but I have seen some crossed up running hounds run cats in the desert. Some of the old time California Fox and Cat hunters have bred up a line of running dogs that can flat put the hurt on cats in the desert. It takes time for them to get used to trailing but after that the cat better find a tree or rock hole quickly because they can flat move a track. They seem to do better if you road them for a few miles before turning them loose on a track. It helps take the edge off them. When they get acclimated and settled down they will trail with almost any trail hound for awhile. Then they will start pulling away from the trail hounds with the track. They just know how to move a track and wont stand there and open at a walking speed and open in the same spot twice. This is just my opinion and I'm not putting down any one's tail hounds they do their job well too. Running dogs have their holes just like any dog. Some of them lack tree power. But when they do tree you will see the hair! Its hard to turn young dogs into them because some crossed running dogs are kind of tight mouthed on a cold track, but some will open as soon as they smell the track.

Bottom line is its all about what you prefer. and the style of hunting you do. I think it would be hard to have a pack of running hounds follow behind a horse or mule. They are just too high strung and would pull away from you fast because that's their pace. They hunt fast and go deep.

Bigfoot,

Put the right handle on them and Running Hounds will "Hunt with you" not you hunting them.

It is all in how they are trained. In S. LA Dad used to hunt horse back as well as in S. TX. Joe Rufus Lyne, Cotton Fairchild amd Floyd Warren are all legends in Bobcat Hunting and all hunted extensively horseback. I hear Clinto Brown and some others are currently hunting some horseback and in semi-desert country with Running bred Hounds.

You have described the way Running Hounds handle a track very well, and as Dads Hounds are proving more and more they will TREE!

My purpose for moving this over was to point out that Running Hounds, not just Dads Hounds, can and do perform in other areas than the South East. Others who have bred the right Hounds with the right traits for the right reasons have Running Hounds of any of several Breeds, that can and will perform and produce Game in varied locals!

CJC

[pegleg]

this is something I was wondering about as well and would like some thoughts on it. the differences between tree hounds and running hounds. big question if you think about it and don't give the canned answer. all U.S. tree hounds -plotts were bred FROM running hounds so at what point did this major change in styles occur ? treeing is required for some game or areas but in some situations its not a absolute requirement. so a slower trailing hound is a trait from the bloodhound style hounds breed in to develop a more methodical tracker. however its been proven that a hound doesn't have to be slow to be methodical trailer. Does this mean a hound that trails slowly is displaying a fault? or what about those walkers that are so high drive and rattled that they wont trail until they run smack into a wall of hot scent? I don't aim to hurt feelings with the walker analogy but it is a fault in some strains, imo. Or should everyone be breeding for hounds that can move old tracks well and really push a decent track/ cold trail when required and drift when its beneficial. I am sure that someone will say you can't have it all in one package but there are and have been hounds that where and could be the whole package...? do cat hunters not want a hound that can pick up cold tracks? I do. do lion hunters focus on a nose above and before speed? maybe but why? I'd really like to hear some thoughts on this guy's

[hunt14]

My understanding is that a gentleman by the name of Charlie Tant from California ran a running walker type hound. They were crop eared, racey ,tight built, open spotted hounds . If their make up wasnt all running dog the mojority of it was. Charlie has been long gone now but his dogs were super tough, cold nosed lion dogs and were coveted by many of the dry ground hunters in the west. Leon Cox, Jerry Hughes, Milt Holt, Stan Mecham and many more all had some real nice dogs that came from Charlie and swear that they were deadly on a real bad lion track and could handle the heat real well. They had other problems with shyness and different things but didnt lack much in the hunting department. I looked pretty hard for any dogs that was heavy in the Tant blood but came up with little results, but its an example of running dogs that worked real well on the cats and lions out here in the west in real dry bare ground conditions.

[Big Mike]

For lions more you need a dog that has nose to trail a cold track all day even if its just at walking speed. Lots of time you will catch up to the lion. Lions cover lots of distance so the cold trailing is the majority of the hunt. Speed is secondary as most lions dont run that hard after they are jumped. But speed never hurts just like theres no such thing as too cold of nose IMO.

Bobcats a large part of the hunt is after the cat is jumped, so speed is much more important, but in order to get to the jump a dog has to be able to trail some kind track.

There are top lion hunters like the Mcbrides that use running type breed hounds and they have caught as many lions as anybody in the dryest of SW texas conditions. But their dogs like the Clays have been line bred and mixed bred for so long its hard to say they are still running dogs. They are cat and lion dogs at there best. You can say the same for all of the really good dry ground lion hunters in South NM and South AZ. Like the Glenns they start from F river walkers but you cant go out and find a F river walker like theirs.

Ive noticed alot of good dry ground lion hunters are favoring the smaller, shorter eared kind of dogs. They all might have bred a little running dog in them somewhere

Not sure I make any sense after I reread this LOL