When to seperate a pup from the pack ?

[Unreal_tk]

Ok here a question brought up by the post of if your dogs can catch a cat by themselves. When do you seperate a pup from the pack and work them as a individual? And how?

I have a pup right now who has made several races, started treeing on the last couple. When I start hunting again I will separate him from the pack and work him alone on hot tracks until he trees one by himself. I just wonder how many people would do this or similar ways.

[LarryBeggs]

One thing I have done is let 5or 6 month old pups line tracks out of the road when I have found a track and know for sure there is a runnable cat track there. A few years back I just had a couple of six month old pups with me I brought along to keep a dog warm I was trying to get out of a hole. when I got back to the truck a friend called and said he had found a cat track his dogs didnt act like they could smell.These dogs hadnt been on many cat and he asked me if I would see If my pups could line the track out .The track was at least a couple hours old . There was sparse snow and we couldnt find where the cat had left the road but those two pups stuck ther nose to the ground and walked that track down the road just like you would hope an older dog would do. They left the road running and there was the cat track.They never treed it but they kept the track going for about three hours. On our way home found another track in sparse snow and they did the same thing.I think any chance a guy gets when you can turn a young dog on what you know to be a cat track is good experience for them.I am sure if my older dogs had been there that day I would have let them go to .The pups would have still learned something maybe not as much maybe more.I think even young pups will surprise you how good they will do sometimes if given the chance. Take care Larry

[twist]

If the young dog has only been to a few trees and is just starting to put things together with your older dogs why would you want to take it away from that? Ask yourself what would be the benefit of it if any at all. keep it going on the right path and later on many successful tracks and trees then try and let it start the track but work up to it. Andy

[Unreal_tk]

Andy,

That was basicly my intention. Was to run him on older tracks with the old dogs but if I got the chance on a hot one to turn him loose and let him work whatever he will. He might go 200 yards and come back but its a confidence building experience in my eyes.

[twist]

sounds like you are on the right track hope he keeps progressing into what you are looking for. Andy

[cobalt]

Here's the benefits IMO. Turning that pup out changes his reality of "I'm not the leader", to "I am the leader" and not only that , a covered track by my older dogs time after time gives the pup less opportunity to learn and figure out how to trail and work loses ON HIS OWN. The best part of doing this is if it is a hot track and the pups screws up, dump the girls on it and challenge them to fix his mess. That might even make them better. Letting a pup follow for too long sets him up to be a follower. Even if a couple years down the road he becomes a leader, he has been hindered from learning basic skills he might have already mastered. If he goes, he goes, yeee haw. If he doesn't , he doesn't, oh well. Can you imagine what it would do for his ego if he actually caught one by himself!! And how YOU would feel about him.

[Marshall]

X 2 cobalt. You never know if your pup is contributing or just fallowing unless you single it out for a few starts. A pup will always be in tow unless it realizes that it has to trail the cat up to a tree and that those cats are not just in a tree already. I believe the older dogs can teach a pup a lot but you the houndsmen has to give that pup the confidence it needs to get a track started. After a few times of letting that pup start tracks ahead of your older dogs, you will find it looking for loses instead of fallowing the older dogs around on a lose. I coach t- ball and the kids vary in age fron 4-9 and as a coach you realize that the older kids for the most part understand what's goin on and you can't just throw the 4 year olds in there and expect them to understand, you need to show thos young kids what it's all about and that if they fall a experienced teammate or yourself is there to pick them up and it gives them the confidence that they can do it. Same rules apply for hound pups. Hope that made sense,

Marshall

[George Streepy]

There have been some interesting topics lately that have had me thinking. I get what everyone is saying about turning out pups first to let them spread their wings a little. When hunting in snow I have let pups try tracks before, but where you hunt and the type of hunting will have a big effect on what a pup is able to accomplish. I have been thinking of Marshalls baseball analogy and I agree to a certain extent. If a guy is sitting on a fresh lion track or smoking hot bobcat track in the snow it may do something for your pup, those races are like T-Ball. If you are hunting dry ground bobcats without a track to determine direction etc, turning pups out is like throwing a kindergartner into a fast pitch little league game. He is most likely going to strike out.

I have to disagree that running pups with older dogs just builds followers. Any of the pups that I kept were contributing in some way or another by the time they were about 18 months old. Once they hit that age they are well on their way and I start changing up who is on the box. That gives them the opportunity to start tracks but usually by that point they are already competing with their older counterparts fairly well. That desire to compete will carry out onto the ground and into the brush.

What I am trying to say is it depends on your hunting style and why type of ground your hunting. In a T-ball or little league game the older dogs might be able to come in later and fix the mistakes, but when it come to one of those big league cats it may be hard for the older dogs to fix. Which sounds like a desire for instant gratification but it is not. I believe the more races the dogs complete the better they get. They need to learn that there is no quitting, and striking out is not why we are here.

Just so I'm clear, my favorite part of hunting is when a young dog brings that cat across the road showing his/her teachers how to get it done. Whether it is my dog or my buddies, it is what I like to see more than cats in a tree.

[South Texan]

x2 George.

[Dads dogboy]

Dittos Mr. George!

This is what works for Dad, Running the Pups together with one or two older Hounds for 6 months to a year.

It would sure be different if we had Snow and knew for certain how old a Track was.

However no faults with what others do...if is working do not try to fix it!

South Texan and some others have a Great thread over on Big Game with Hounds about Independent Hounds...a very Good Read!

[Marshall]

George you are correct and I should have been more specific. I know the country unreal hunts and the conditions for the most part, what I described is what a guy can do when he has controll of the situation ( knowing how old and which direction the cat is going). I do however believe if you box your dogs and get a good strike then you can let a pup out to try and figure it out ahead of a older dog. A few years ago I cut my losses with my older dogs and started fresh with a pup and a very young and inexperienced dog. By Having controll of what type of tracks they got let out on we had a little success and my pup at the age of 7 months old caught his first cat. This year I hunted those same two dogs plus a daughter of theirs and turned her loose when she was able to keep up (6 months old). Now at the end of the season she was 9 months old and has every bit the ability her parents have but I noticed a huge difference in how her dad hunted at that age compared to her because I walked tracks out with him and he had to do the work and very soon he put it together, my young pup made all the races from the start but I promise you that she could not even come close to catching a cat because all she did was tag along and that is my fault. You need to create a bit of independence for them IMO and again I'm going back to the t-ball analogy, you will see a lot better results if you are the one teaching the 4 year old instead of them fallowing the 9 year olds around. You are 100% correct that you need to have a controlled setting so they don't fall on their face time and time again. Good info George. Thanks,

Marshall

[Unreal_tk]

Well said everyone! My only question is to those who box or strike cats is when you get a cat that you say to yourself DUMP THE BOX because its so hot why not just dump a pup and let them try to start it atleast if not let only pups go? And Marshall is correct, we can control what tracks we can let a pup go on with snow, and even help the pup out if they are working it good alone.

[Tim Pittman]

Although agreeing with most or at least part of what most had to say,I believe the contributing to a track is easy to see or not see if we as the hunter are in there with the dogs on the track.The jump might be another story,but from the start and thru the cold trailing and some of the trail before the jump,if the terrain allows.I expect by 18 months old to be showing me a little of most of things it takes for them to catch a cat,and by 24 months old they should be shining pretty good.As far as numbers of cats exposed to,I've seen a few dogs take to it in say15-30 tracks and others been to 40+ trees before the bulb starts glowing all the way.What I do marvel at though,is the dogs that are supposed to be finished dogs--when they only see +or-10cats a year and they're finished by a long two year old.I've not been fortunate enough to own any of these strains or individuals in my quest for the superdog/and or strain.AS for the original part of the question on seperateing a pup from the pack[this varies with individuals]some may get it at my house between8-12 months and others 15-17 months,it usually right before they turn the corner to make a dog[when they go thru the super independent stage]and start bumping trash when they know better.I seperate them and leave them home anywhere from 3-10 hunts,usually when I start hunting them again they get turned into the first race.Then after that,back to getting oppurtunity to start tracks with another dog or two.I still think George probably covered it the best.

[George Streepy]

Unreal_tk,

If you are referring to seeing a cat cross the road then that might be a time to let pups go. I have done that. That doesn't happen very often, and when you do see a cat walk across the road it isn't unusual for the best dogs to have a hard time getting it started. Once they get it started it usually goes very quickly but the initial start can be tough.

If you are talking about a blow up on the box because the track is real fresh, if you didn't see a track or the cat itself you maybe letting the pups burn the track backwards. There are ways to work with pups but on dry ground turning pups out by themselves can end up with more negatives than positives in my opinion.

I know where your at and you have snow to use, turning out pups first probably isn't going to hurt, I was bringing some thought about the guys that don't get to use a lot of snow. Good topic, by the way.

[twist]

Tim, you hit it on the head. If a houndsmen is in on the race he gets to see how, who and what is working and going on. I just took that for granite that most do this. In the area I hunt we are for the most part always able to keep with the dogs at some points in the hunt and one can sure tell quick if the young are doing their part or just fallowing. I agree with letting a young dog start some tracks but he or she had better have earned that spot before they are tried. Its just like anything else if you practice enough you are ready to play if you dont practice and you go in the game you are setting yourself up for failure. (unreal) stated his pup has been on several races and treed on a couple, to me this dog is not ready to be soloed out. jmo Andy