!!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby david » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:50 pm

perk wrote: I'm sure over the years tons of crosses have been made in our respective breeds that breeders have lied about...

Remember that running dogs today aren't the same as turn of the 20th century, ...

It's hard for us to decipher bc we have no clue what dogs traits were 60-100 yrs before we were born...

...Used to be a local 2 day fox field trial here in Va, ... they always gave away a best tree dog award...



There is just so much that has gone on with dogs that I have never even heard of. And that is stuff in my own country. Not to mention the rest of the world.

Breeding would be so much easier if a guy just knew everything.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby macedonia mule man » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:37 pm

Regardless how you breed, whether yor line breed , inbreed or our cross or breed good to good or bad to bad there will be only a small majority make good dogs. For the small majority to make good dogs they have to go to good hunters. Ever once in a while an exceptional will come along and make an outstanding dog regardless . The ultimate bobcat dog deal is nice to dream about but regardless what kind of dogs you use and which ever way you decide to cross them I believe only a small number are really going to turn out. Usuall the breeder that makes statements like my kennel produces 80% has gone kennel blind, and most breeders are kennel blind. It's ok to dream but it's a whole lot of thing about breeding that's a mystery.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby Jeff Eberle » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:00 pm

macedonia mule man wrote:Regardless how you breed, whether yor line breed , inbreed or our cross or breed good to good or bad to bad there will be only a small majority make good dogs. For the small majority to make good dogs they have to go to good hunters. Ever once in a while an exceptional will come along and make an outstanding dog regardless . The ultimate bobcat dog deal is nice to dream about but regardless what kind of dogs you use and which ever way you decide to cross them I believe only a small number are really going to turn out. Usuall the breeder that makes statements like my kennel produces 80% has gone kennel blind, and most breeders are kennel blind. It's ok to dream but it's a whole lot of thing about breeding that's a mystery.

Just to see if I read this right of the crosses you listed above your saying each litter would produce the same amount of made dogs ?
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby david » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:18 pm

Dan McDonough wrote:Laikas, Elkhounds and the Mtn. Cur, ...


That caused me to remember words from another old time hunter that I heard second hand. I am mostly writing it for my own benefit, because it was getting lost in the fog.

It was told to me in a conversation about the spitz dogs. He said any dog with a curly tail will bark up a tree.

If any one can add positive or negative experience to this statement, please let me know.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby macedonia mule man » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:50 pm

Jeff, what I wrote is what I believe due to the results I have seen in back yard breeding and big kennel breeding. Very few make the kind of dog you were shooting far. Maby 5-10%.
David, believe me all dogs with curly tails don't make Tree dogs. Some won't even pee on a tree, they will try to find a fire plug.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby david » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:31 pm

I am not sure he said they would all fit our definition of a tree dog, he just said they would bark up a tree.

But if you know of a curly tailed dog that won't bark up a tree, that is all the data I needed.

I have only had one dog that had a curly tail when she was young. I hated how it looked and thought about docking it. I didn't, and it relaxed with age. She turned into the best cat catching dog I have ever owned, and would stay treed all night. I never tested it beyond all night.

That was the only example I had until now.

Thanks.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby Dan McDonough » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:30 am

"If you only do what you can do, you'll never be better than what you are."
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby pegleg » Wed Sep 07, 2016 2:21 am

David maybe curly tail was a over simplification. I know most any Nordic spitz I've been around was a tree barker. But maybe there's others that don't. But I can't say for sure since I have a hard time picturing tails of the past. My dad wasn't much of a hound guy but had elkhounds and a few random breeds and the elkhounds all treed but were dog aggressive and really didn't get on well with others. My brother who's been in Mexico with me talked one of the cowboys into roping some pups they found in a canyon off a dirt road. If I remember I'll try getting pictures I'm sure you'll enjoy them. I can't say if their tails are curly or not but they're a mystery to me. Probably the ugliest nastiest tempered canines I've ever run across. One guy offered they might have coyote but I countered with I'd never seem a coyote that ugly. They aren't very old and just slink around raising Cain or growling at people. Not cat dogs for sure but a good example.of poor genetic mixture.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby Dan Edwards » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Elkhound lurchers X Mark's cathounds = THE FUTURE!

You heard it here first folks.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby david » Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:35 pm

pegleg wrote:My brother who's been in Mexico with me talked one of the cowboys into roping some pups they found in a canyon off a dirt road. If I remember I'll try getting pictures I'm sure you'll enjoy them. I can't say if their tails are curly or not but they're a mystery to me. Probably the ugliest nastiest tempered canines I've ever run across. One guy offered they might have coyote but I countered with I'd never seem a coyote that ugly. They aren't very old and just slink around raising Cain or growling at people. .


Haha. That might be some of that super secret Mexican cur blood McDuffie brought back into the US. You better take them hunting.

You know, one of the first sayings I ever heard a Houndsman say was "a dog THAT ugly has GOT TO be good!"
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby pegleg » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:08 pm

That's just cause he never saw a dog this ugly. But they are some grasshopper eaten snake killing boogers
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby david » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:17 pm

Oh man, I know a lot of ranchers up here that keep a lot of cats to kill mice. You could probably create a good market for those snake killing dogs across the south.

I know I sure wanted a couple of them with me in Florida and Arkansas. I still get the shivers and cold sweat when I dream of all those giant snake tracks in the sand.

Saw some snakes and that was bad enough. But I knew where they were. The tracks, well...
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby david » Wed May 10, 2017 11:43 pm

Dan I was going to tell you to copy and paste the following post from another thread on to this thread. But then I thought "what if he says no?" Then I thought "hey I could do it, just because it's a free country, and I want to."


Dan McDonough wrote:I'm still around. Just holding off on the next leg of the project until my youngest child goes off to kinder garden this fall. I'm still working lurchers. I've been trying to breed a stag that trees to a border collie female that also trees well but have not had any success so far. I put them together again a couple of weeks ago but never saw them tie. It may or may not have taken but I won't know for another month or so. I'm taking my time and doing each step fully so it's going a little slow right now.

I did get a little frustrated with not getting the above mentioned dogs to breed and put stag x mtn. cur cross together. Along the way I kept saying to myself, why don't I just breed a tree dog to a stag and see if I can't get a pup that will fall somewhere in the middle. The mtn. cur I used is semi open on track with a fantastic locate. He's a very good treedog and I'm interested in sorting through the pups. I may keep nothing or I may find something in there that works.

Another direction I'm coming at this is to breed Tommy to a Leopard female and then keep breeding that back into the Leopards. I want to jack up the speed and drive side while keeping the nose and treedog. Like the Gysies would say, "Put the speed on top." [ ;) to M.D.] This is a long shot and will come down to my ability to pick the right dogs out of this along the way. If I can do this, I'll certainly be a legend in my own mind at the least. It's all pretty tough going but I've been taking my time and getting the best ingredients for the job at hand. Some friends have suggested that I just cross to the running bred dogs but I'm looking for a different type of brain.

On the flip side, I've just hit a new level with my Leopards. It's all inbreeding so I can't say for sure how it happened but it did. Just a nick-cross is suppose. No use looking a gift horse in the mouth. I'm waiting on another litter of those and that will be my next generation of Leopards. They aren't for everyone though. They're a little touchy about rough handling and training them takes a little finesse. They outcome is worth it though.

On the odd(er) side of things, I have a Whippet x Jagdterrier cross that is a fantastic little track dog and can catch cats quite easily but he's not treeing very well and sometimes not at all. If that little sucker was a good treedog I'd just about have this thing whipped already. It's very interesting to be able to see some of these oddball crosses do the job. I'm pretty sure he's going to get killed if he tags an adult male bobcat around here. Most of our males hand around 40+ lbs. and are nothing for a 30 lb. dog to fool with alone.

I don't want to come off like every dog I own is a "good one". I've had to cull more than I care to talk about to get these few game dogs. It's not as easy as my stories suggest. I'm working very hard right now to locate a BC male that is a bang-up treedog and I'm not having a lot of luck. I did manage to get an old Irish stock dog trainer on the lookout for that type of BC for me. It should be easy once it's found. I'm looking for a naughty BC male that likes to slip off and tree stuff while he should be working stock. You would think that it would be easy to buy that type of dog from someone that is at their whit's end from their dog getting distracted instead of working stock like it should. You guys that live in cattle country have it made for finding BC's. I'm going to have to do a lot of driving no matter how it turns out.

Anyhow, I'm still just a babysitter but I'm getting out about 4 days a week with the dogs and still pushing on. This fall it's back to the woods and things should move a little faster then.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby Dan McDonough » Mon May 15, 2017 4:36 pm

Thought about that but got distracted. Thanks. :)

I checked my stag female out really good yesterday and she looks like she's going to have pups out of the Mtn. Cur. Who knows, this might be an easier way to a treeing type of lurcher. I have another breeding up my sleeve. The only thing is that I don't think it took. I bred Vicki to a Leopard Stud named Kuby. It would be a serious competition between the Mtn. Cur x Stag and the Leopard x Lurcher (BC x Stag). My bet goes with the latter. It has the advantages of being out of the line of leopards I hunt and having 1/4 BC. I'd be wildly happy if the latter litter does somehow materialize because that's the route I envision this whole experiment going in the first place. Unfortunately, I only have one female to use for this and it must be a female to pass on the BC part. One of these days, I'll hit this thing right. I'll certainly have enough new recruits to sift through this year. I'll have more to say when all of the possible pups hit the ground. That should be by the second week in July for the latest born litter.
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Re: !!! The Ultimate Bobcat Dog...Part 1.5 !!!

Postby Dan McDonough » Tue May 23, 2017 3:18 pm

Going to a big herding trial here in WI. over the Memorial weekend. I'm just going to go and slip around hoping to spot one of those dogs that might have that type of brain that I'm looking for. Buying them is another challenge all together. Who knows what I'll find...that's the fun. I'm going to slip a piece of cotton with some Grawe's bobcat scent in a old film canister in my pocket and pay attention to which dogs can't take their eye off of me. It's a little sneaky but hopefully I can get catch the attention of the dog I'm looking for. I'll be looking for the dog that knows dang well that the scent is with me and not just around somewhere. Wish me luck. Hopefully there won't be to many dogs that break from their run. ;) But, if they do, I'll be there with a hand full of cash to save the day. :D
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