Serious Question!

[mark]

You make good points Al. Im glad i have been lucky enough to travel to places where i have heard of exceptional dogs to see and hear for myself instead of relying on hear say and my own pessimistic nature in which to draw my conclusions.

[perk]

All I can say Al is I layed eyes on dead cats, one bayed up, and 1 in a culvert. think those some pack were posted in many pics with dead cats or bayed up cats. Hide donts sell for big money, and a man battling cancer doesn't need to walk into the woods at night to see a dead cat when he seem thousands. Not saying they were the best dogs or caught them all, but please don't be fooled, they caught a plenty.
I've hunted dogs out that pack here with mine and caught/treed cats, I've got dogs out that stock that have caught red fox grey fox and the occasional cat if we could find one.
If you gotta see it to believe it, when I was there I saw it....

[dhostetler]

I have been to Oregon a couple times and I know my dogs would not catch 50% on the coast. I do think if I stayed there a winter my dogs would probably get used to the brush and maybe improve???? If I moved to the Oregon coast and my dogs would not be able to catch cats consistently I would be in the market for different dogs. I can not handle defeat, if I get my ass handed to me it eats me up.

Yes the northern Rockies can occasionally have awesome snow conditions (20 days a year???) to catch bobcats, I hunt when I can most of my cats are caught in less then ideal conditions.

Our conditions are terrible we had our biggest snowstorm in decades about a month ago and our snow is of epic depth. This morning I sledded the roads from my house before I went to work and found a fresh track, I thought this is going to be quick one I rushed back there with 3 dogs, The cat sank about 2" and the dogs about 12". They moved it surprisingly well and split treed my best female treed on a big fir and I forgot my darn binocs and couldn't find it. My two 17 month old pups went a half mile the other way and treed, was a 300 yard snowshoe hike to that tree. The whole race lasted about an hour but I spent 3 hours sledding and digging out my stuck sled numerous times. I was thinking if I hunt in this deep snow I need to try to hire someone to hunt with me or just plain quit till this snow melts. The last bobcat before this one was a small cat that stayed on top and the dogs literally sank in deeper than they themselves were the race was beyond pathetic to say the least.

[al baldwin]

Perk I know those dogs caught cats, what percentage I don/t know or really care. The gentleman told me himself he had no interest in owning a tree hound. My point was when talking about catching 90 percent. If no one walks in to the tree, catch or maybe a lose. How can one be certain that cat was actually caught. I feel blessed to have meet the folks, heard some very nice things from all who visited their home.Can/t say ever heard him say what percentage they caught, did at times tell about some that got away. Mark when I say here, I am speaking of the hunters I have known here,
my small neck of the woods. Now some may get on a run and catch 90 percent, but catching that number over a long period, here,do believe very few do so. I have reached the point in my life where I enjoy the few chances I get to hunt & sure would not object to having a young hunter to check out the trees, while I listened from the road. Al----------Duane did not mean all snow is easy to catch cats in. I have a friend in central oregon he tells a deep powder snow makes it very hard for cats to elude , if they are caught before reaching the rim rocks. I know a few inches of damp snow here & some of those runners are easier to catch. Problem is most times melts fast or turns to ice. The ice is a different ball game. Al

[dhostetler]

Al,

What is your friend's definition of deep powder? Yes 12" to 18" of powder with temperatures in the teens is ideal bobcat catching conditions. Once you get to 24" to 48" of powder its a total different ball game. Bobcats have a lot better flotation on very deep powder than hounds do. One problem with deep snow a walking cat stays on top better while hounds have a tendency to try to run on a track and end up wallowing and lunging and the cat just walks away. If hounds could be trained to just fast pace walk in deep conditions rather then run they could probably do a lot better.

[al baldwin]

Duane I used the term deep because 12 to 18 inches is deep snow to me. He actually told me about the very same as you stated. If you check back will find I stated in first post to you, ideal snow can make cat catching look easy. Should have said ideal snow & decent ground. Al

[perk]

Al, you must care about their percentage or perceived percentage some Bc you took the time to point out, after Mark said 50% was unacceptable to them, and I said in had seen it there 1st hand, that you knew 2 ppl 1 who didn't see dead cat and one who didn't see a cat in a tree. So it most have some impact on your line of thought or how you want us to think.
Also I don't need to see the catch to know when it happens, I always walk in for confirmation. But you can hear a Fox squeal, a coon growl and hiss, deer have a long drawn out bleet and a pack of dogs on cat makes a muffled fight sound. Very easy to distinguish all those sounds from several hundred yards at time. As for hole or tree. Do you not have a guy feeling when a driving race cuts off that something happened, running a Fox we always say 'that Fox did something right there' meaning hole, or tree. Then we head that way and usually always find dogs treeing or baying, I didn't need to see the dogs to know what happened, done it enough to tell, not always so easy if t aint a driving race, then are the question marks, them tied on one that sound is just a matter of going to get the dogs 'bc that Fox or cat did something right there'
And lastly I think this whole discussion has gotten off topic and turned into the age old argument whose got the biggest Willy
Happy hunting

[al baldwin]

Perk there are those times & sounds you speak of. Also bobcats caught can leave dogs with tell, tell bites & scratches. I still believe no one can be sure a cat has been caught every time a track ends & no one makes an effort to confirm that catch. When you say someone has seen thousands of cat catches, is it not ok to ask how many were confirmed by the hunter???? Yes it seems these debates always turns into a pissing match. Some of you running dog folks seem to put more faith in your ability to know. for sure, in the middle of the night, from several hundred yards away what took place when a track ends, than anyone i have ever hunted with. More power to you, you are very blessed. It is & always will be my opinion all dogs no matter, how much time as passed since they have trashed, need to be checked on when ever possible. Both of those incidents, I REGRETFULLY SPOKE OF ,where very close & would have been easy to validate. I ASSUME, both those hunters, must have had a little doubt & wanted to confirm a catch.
Respectful Al

[perk]

Al, I go to check everything, if possible, that why I keep dogs that stay at hole/tree, bc I want to know for sure, even when I'm positive I still wanna see it, personally. I don't hunt at night much at all, my signatures say 'daylight and eyesight don't lie' and if the dogs don't catch him on the ground it don't count .... meaning if he escapes to a tree or a hole dogs may have put a finish to the track but that game isn't caught! (Which is ok, bc dead game never runs again)

I'd hate for some one to think I know my pack so well and never actually see anything do it all by listening, but again mine are just culls who suit me most of the time.

And asking how many you put your hands on is fine if some one is talking about it. I take pols number count a with a grain of salt, bc if you go with them a time or 2 their dogs will tell on themselves. Problem arises when it comes across as arrogance, and putting down other as ignorant or mistaken, while challenging their beliefs bc ppl do not share the same theories and beliefs or have seen things 1st hand that some may not believe in. (everyone is guilty of it on here, myself too at times)
Happy hunting to all

[Dan Edwards]

perk,

I remember when I was a boy my old man would absolutely know when his dogs treed a coon on the outside or if it was in a den. I never could figure it out til I got older and had walked to thousands of trees.

[perk]

Dan. Great story, it's amazing how many things one can learn with lots of practice and paying attention to detail

[mark]

Im slower than most but i can tell the difference between a track that ends in a lose and a track that ends in a caught cat on the ground by the sounds of it. It sounds the same in Arkansas and Texas as it does in Oregon. I always walk in and confirm it here. I was a guest in Arkansas and did as they did but i had no reason to call bullshit on them cuz i heard the same thing they did and i didnt need to crawl through that snake infested spider infested thorny brush for my eyes to confirm what i heard. As for the races that were claimed treed i would always hear some long drawn out barks and by looking at garmin you could see multiple dogs out 2-300 yards looking for the track. After a while the older dogs would start heading to the pickup and the rest would get honked out. I was there in July in very high heat and humidity so i got to see some bad looses and the dogs would not come out until they were honked out on those.

[CRA]

I hunted in Arkansas enough to know that those dogs were the real deal. I witnessed them in terrible scenting conditions do great dog work. Conditions varied from ridiculous heat even after midnight to extremely high pollen etc, etc. When I went I was all for not going in that nasty country to confirm what my ears heard. Like Mark said prior, That area has 3 extremely poisonous snakes and some nasty looking spiders. Top that off with saw briers that will tear clothes off your body and skin off your face. I'm all for not having a tree dog under those circumstances. I heard good races, witnessed great dog work. What more can a guy ask for considering a guy in his mid eighties fighting cancer. One of the toughest men I've had the pleasure of knowing and hunting with.

[cfanno01]

I have a question about walking in and confirming if the dogs actually caught the cat. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just asking a question. Why do you hunt bobcat and not go in to retrieve the kill? Is it common practice to just leave the cat dead in the woods? That's not what hunting is about to me. I'm not saying I'm going to eat a bobcat, but I at least would use the hide or something. I can see leaving a coyote lay, even tho i don't do it, but a bobcat? Again just wondering.

[perk]

Cfann01, Bobcat hides are worthless basically in the southeast, and ones full of bite holes are worth even less. Those guys ran for the enjoyment of the chase, that's what hunting is about for them, and me. I don't like to be outdone by a Fox/Cat however I'm happy if he tree a or holes bc he is there to run another day. If he gets caught, that's good too. I hunt to hear/see my dogs run, I would never shoot a Fox in front my dogs or a cat out a tree. That's not what hound hunting is about at all to me. But that's the nice thing, we don't have to see hunting as the same thing. I would never sit in a stand to shoot a deer, no matter how big, nor would I mount a buck, no matter how large.. have no desire to not my style of hunting. Also I'd say an 80+ yr old man with cancer, who is the man Mark was talking about. Couldn't walk thru the thick to get one, but still loved the chase. I'm certain he walked to plenty in his younger days