Anything to pass the time

[lawdawgharris]

Redwood you said a mouthful when you said it’s hard for one person keep a breeding program going. There are so many variables. Keeping enough dogs to breed without breeding yourself into a corner, or enough dogs to have versatility in your breedings, or being able to hunt the younger dogs enough to prove them out are just a few of the problems. I’ve been raising my family for about 25 years. There are always tweaks that have to be made. If you don’t have that tweak available then you have to outcross which can bring a whole other set of issues to the table. Just keeping 4 or 5 dogs usually means they are going to be really closely bred. So if you aren’t extremely careful, you are to the end of the road quickly and are once again forced to outcross. I can’t keep 3-4 pups out of a litter. One, I don’t get to hunt enough to be fair to that many pups. Second I don’t have that kind of room. And third I can’t afford it. I place my pups out of each litter. I have people that will hunt them and give them the opportunity to make dogs. A good many of the local hunters that I consider the better hunters have one, two or several of them. I give them the pups and the only stipulations I put on it are that IF they decide they don’t want them then I get the first option to get it back. Second I can breed to the males whenever I need to third if they have a litter out of them I am on every list as a potential home for one of the pups. I don’t have to take one but there might be a time when I need a particular cross. It works out well for everyone. This also allows me to get to hunt with the dogs and make my own evaluation. The worst breeding mistake I ever made was taking someone else’s word for what a dog was. Most people that get females will ask how to breed her when the time comes which is another plus. Getting to see how the litter turns out and not just the one or two I kept is a must for me. I won’t breed to a dog that isn’t out of a litter of very high percentage. I lost a great family of catch dogs because I had no help. These dogs lasted for years because they were good at what they did. This meant that you didn’t have to raise many. I should’ve raised more but with the catch dogs, I got tired of stupid people doing stupid stuff with them. An example was two guys went hunting with us. We had two of my catch dogs and bayed a small sounder. We sent them into to catch and each one caught a good hog of their own out of the group. We caught a few more before the hunt was over. The guys were extremely impressed with the handle the dogs had and how accurate they caught. They kept talking and then started telling how they thought and the things they did with a catch dog. One of the dumbest things they said was that a catch dogs had to earn a vest. They didn’t start them out in one. That’s like saying a soldier has to earn his gun. Send him to war and if he does good they’ll give him a gun. I can’t do stupid very well and people like this can’t have a dog of mine. For these reasons my family ran out. We have one old gyp left and I have a pup out of her and my AB male that is really nice. Anyway, I did all that rambling to say you’re right Redwood. I hope your life circumstances are more cooperative and you raise your best dogs ever.


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[1whitedog]

Thanks for taking the time to post some great insight. I would say a lot of people don't have the grasp of their breeding program or put that nearly that much thought into it, I appreciate the ones that do.
This summer I was hunting with some local legends that are alot more senior than me and have beat up these mountains as much as anyone in their day. There were three of them and myself and we had a conversation about breeding. It was their consensus that you just breed 2 dogs together and the law of averages are going to play out. I found that very interesting coming from a group with so much combined hunting experience. Though I strongly disagree with their approach I have to respect it and give it some merit being it is based on so many years of observation.
My observation is that only 1 of those hunters stayed in a certain breed of dogs for very long and maybe that is the reason. The 1 who has stayed in his line for a long time are not dogs I care to own.
Walking the fine line of very selective breeding and not being out of the line of dogs can be tricky. Collecting semen can help, but not the end all. We lost a large amount of semen out of our foundation dogs in the last 2 years. It would sure be nice to be able to reach out to someone and grab some of those genetics back especially at this point where we could make some excellent line crosses.
I wouldn't take back how tight a key that we kept on our genetics but if we had lost a certain dog here or there I may be signing a different tune.
As far as breeding health I dont breed alot but when I do I usually have some kind of issue with reproductive health of some sort. I have learned if I have a much anticipated cross I'm better off to get both parents vet checked ahead of time. Blood work etc. There are a bunch of small issues infections etc that dont always come to the surface until you start looking at blood work, semen etc.
My hunting partner and I packs consists of all siblings, he hunts about half as much as I do but still alot. They are the same blood line. His dogs catch almost everytime we have tried. What I am Getting at is that big game dogs that are hunted hard do in general have lower rate of successful breedings. This is also the feed back I have received from several semen collectors I have used over the years. They collect big game hounds to poodles. The quality of a hard hunted big game hound is lower on average then most. Even the same lines that are coon hunted etc. Makes since to me when you think about the number of tough miles that a hard hunted big game hound can have under its belt.
Just a couple observation of mine and others to add to the conservation. Good hunting.

[macedonia mule man]

I’ve noticed men who hunt hard are not as selective on breeding because they know you can hunt most dogs in to something useable in time. Which is true. Selective breeding to me is the best but you have to know what you want in a dog to start with. The best breeding I ever made was selection between dogs that were just alike in traits but no where close to being within a family. The male was 1/2 beagle-1/2 running walker, the female was full running walker. Kept all 7 pups and they all made dogs as good as their stre and dam. To keep this selective breeding up, I would have to look at a lot of outside dogs and I had rather be hunting than looking at someone’s else’s dog. That’s why I’ve learned over time to beware of big name kennel breeding. Good selective breeding is slow.

[perk]

The thing I think about is there is a difference between being a hard hunter, successful hunter, and a good houndsman. For example there is a guy down the road who used to have great foxhounds, always catching game, don't know that I ever knew him to raise his own pups, always bought dogs from people. The other guys I know around who were/are successful breed and raise their own pups or get them from people who hunt similar to them and similar stock as them.
The guys I know who are most successful year in and year out and produce litters of dogs that constantly turn out at a high %, not just a dog or 2 out of a litter, are very judicious and breed within the same line mostly. These are men who hunt 200+ days a year at least.
I would think it's very hard to keep a line going by yourself, or with just another man or 2. Unless you keep big packs and hunt alot, hard to tell how all pups in a litter turn out, unless you have smaller litter of 2-4 like I often do. Less dogs to spread around and you cans we what they all do. Not many houndsman who trust others opinions on dogs and what needs to be bred and what needs to be culled. I don't consider best to best breeding a poor practice, the offspring is less predictable tho as to what traits will be passed down.
End of the day the only man gotta be happy is the man feeding the dogs.
I have 3 pups I'm about ready to start that are outta a half mate cross, where the dogs are bred tight to begin with, and I'm as excited about starting them as a kid at Christmas.
Happy Hunting

[lawdawgharris]

I have personally seen dogs that were hunted really hard that wouldn’t come into heat until they were given a little time off. I’m sure it’s true in male dogs too.

I think that best to best can work, it obviously has many times. The problem is that it’s hard to keep getting good results with those offspring when it come to them
reproducing. When there is an established family that is consistent in type and style, this is when best to best breedings have the best results to me. By best results I mean the cross produces well and consistent type and style as well they are able to reproduce well too.

It’s funny because my buddy from Georgia is here and just this morning we were talking about the difference in hunters. The ones that buy all their dogs are usually more about the hunting than they are the dogs, not always but usually it seems. Then you have the people that raise everything they hunt. Those folks are usually more about the dogs and watching them work and progress than they are about catching game or trophies. Not everybody that raises dogs are good breeders and not everyone that hunts are good hunters. I have buddies that have hunted with me for years. We still hunted together because of our friendship because some of them don’t know anymore about dogs today than they did 30 years ago. Some people can look at a dog and see things the first 20 people that saw it never picked up on. Those same people can usually look man or beast in the eye and make a pretty accurate assessment of them. I’m glad everyone doesn’t try to raise their own. What was said of knowing what you want or having a goal when you’re raising dogs is an absolute must.

Perk, I have always said that there are 2 kinds of good dogs. One is the dog that does what l personally think a good dog should do. The second kind of good is the kind that makes the person feeding it happy no matter what I think of it.


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[macedonia mule man]

Law, if you can match like traits with a male and female,there is no need for family breeding.family breeding concentrates and brings out the bad fairly quick.fourth generation I don’t consider family.

[Redwood Coonhounds]

The problem with that Mule Man, is they won't consistently produce generation after generation breeding that way if the dogs are constantly outcrossed. Is breeding two alike unrelated dogs more predictable than breeding two unalike unrelated dogs, absolutely. But when it comes down to it you will never get true consistency until you breed alike dogs from the same line. It doesn't cause bad traits to surface that weren't already there. That's why knowing the line beforehand is important. Every dog. Mom, Dad, Aunts, Uncles, Great Grand parents. Most often dogs produce dogs most like their littermates or littermates to the parents. The most important dogs when looking at linebreeding are the dogs that aren't "in the pedigree" so to speak. I rather breed to a good dog from a litter of good dogs, than a Rockstar from a litter of otherwise duds... Honestly people breed related dogs all the time and call it line breeding, but it isn't. Because they pick dogs whom are not alike at all, and don't possess any of the traits the dogs they are trying to line breed on had.

Keeping a line is tough. I hunt a lot. I used to hunt more. When I stopped being able to hunt 10-12 days in a row then work 3, then another 5 or 7 days in a row, 12 months a year- I stopped breeding. I still hunt a minimum of 3 days or nights a week year round, but its much harder than it used to be. It takes longer for me to determine if a dog is truly breeding quality, and by the time I figure it out, I have too many dogs. Then the dogs get old too fast.

[macedonia mule man]

Redwood, what do you call an outcross and how often do you make one. I was told by a fellow that studied animal science to outcross every third generation on dogs if you are running a kennel.

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I look for a dog not related to mine that carries the same traits that is also linebred its self, so there's more predictability. I don't really have a set goal of when I want to bring in an outcross. I just breed each individual dog based on what I think is the best complimentary cross.

[macedonia mule man]

Redwood, what do you notice in your breeding program that lets you know a outcross is needed?

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I definitely have certain crosses the resulting offspring I plan from the get to outcross. I don't try to breed so close for a lot of generations. I've had a few that even if they aren't super linebred or inbred I will outcross because they ended up with a fault I know is in the line and want to go back out and try to correct before it worsens or becomes "fixed" If that makes sense. Again, I think it all comes down to individual dogs. I think I've been lucky that most my dogs are super uniform and complimentary to each other and I am able to linebreed for quite a few generations before a out is needed. Its also because the foundation dogs I started with and linebreed on most were all not closely related.

[lawdawgharris]

So many people breed a dog on performance alone or conformation type alone. In my opinion not enough people breed for both at the same time. I have seen dogs that could perform but weren’t built all that well. They got the job done on desire not ability. That’s great but those dogs weren’t everyday or 4 day a week hunters. They also didn’t have the career longevity. I have proven so many times to my buddies about the difference good conformity makes. I’m a firm believer that the first main ingredient has to be want to. That second has to be the ability to do what his desire is driving him/her to do. I was always raised that a good breeder would have uniformity. Their animals no matter what species they were, would perform and look alike. There may be some in different colored wrappers but the type would all be very similar. So many times you can see an animal and say awe man I know what that rascal is without you telling me. That’s a dog out of ole Redwoods stuff (example). I bet that rascal does X,Y,Z when he hunts. To me those are your best breeders. I don’t want hippo, a giraffe, and an antelope out of the same litter.

I was picking my greyhound buddies brain one day about breeding. He told me that the winningest man in greyhound history did what mule man was talking about. Every fourth generation was an outcross. He linebred 3 times then an outcross. He himself won his share of races and raised a pile of outstanding dogs. His strategy was to breed the crosses that were popular and winning the most until another more popular cross came along. So if the dogs out of Hank crossed well over the gyps out of Merle. That’s what he did until it ran its course. I say this to say it’s all a crap shoot but I definitely believe from my experiences that there is a lot to be said for line breeding. Heck Mother Nature does it ALL the time. The strong make it and the weak don’t. And there is definitely type. When you see one wolf or one coyote you’ve seen them all. They hunt and travel the same and they look the same in build.


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[WalkerCurCat]

Great subject! I'm new on here but have a few years to write about but just my experience not my opinion. Today we walk behind the dog below. Should b able to follow along with the link.

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/module ... _id=774178

After 10 years of handling apbts& many a book/forum/gazzette/ journal read, I was lucky enough to acquire my first known lol "gamebred" pup (TFB LILO)! From a litter of 6, 5 with uniform conformation(Terrier, 1 rat like their momma. A scatter bred dog to a degree by pedigree but from dogs of common origins & at the time anything crossed with Little Gator blood was producing good dogs so I was STOKED. Whatever the case 300 miles later I had a pup. Within a year my partner & I drive 600 miles & "barrow" her dam(TFB NINA LOCA). Through the graciousness of SM allowing a greenhorn on his property, we get her breed to JEKO. 5 pups(all black w white) 4 terrier type 1 rat, all females, we the rat & 1 other. Out of all the breeding we've done with them they consistently produce what I would describe as either bulldog(heavy boned/big head), terrier or rat just like the matriarch. I didn't necessarily like the first litter all that much, not structure type I was trying to retain etc but I had a plan & they were MINE lol. Her next heat we almost miss but get her back down to SM luckily in time but LATE & stick her again to Jeko! Only 1 pup born, a male(GOOCH) the best pup produced so far(Terrier). A year later the man from the North calls & wants his gyp back along with The GOOCH! I try to ride waves not make them so we adventualy we made good on the request. Welp not being left a male to continue a "line" breeding, we stuck LILO to The GOOCH before his departure. 4 black females 1 being a rat & 2 red males later we were in business with the form of previous generations we were looking for(bulldog) heavier boned dogs! Life problems arise & I hastily trade LILO for a Super Star bred male. I wasn't gonna hunt her so I put my conditioned gyp into the hands of someone who would. She went out caught a hog in short order first time out so to say the least that man walked away with the better dog that day but Pedro showed my buddies & I what a gamebred dog can do with a RANK boarhog! The rest of the Pedro story is for another day.... Soon after I'm divorced without any of the OG blood I started with on my personal yard only on with my partners yards. A year later I acquire a Jeep/Redboy(STELLA) female pup & start running her on hogs but her story is also for another day.. Ok back to the goods- BIG RED gets stuck to MAYBELLINE(accidental) on my partners yard, produces 3 females(Terrier, 1rat), 1 male(STOMPER) all of them black w white. STOMPER is the first(terrier/bulldog) offspring we produce & he was a BEAST!! Partners life changes/divorce & once again the blood we've been working with slips away but I seen what I was looking for! Years pass & my partners stick BIG RED(bulldog) x GEZZABELLE(rat) producing 3 black females & 1 red male BICO(1/2 rat 1/2 bulldog) lol but we were still in business! More years pass, I'm all good with the catch I have at the time(STELLA) & short on space I don't retain any of the dogs produced during that time & my partners only keep the SELECT few based on form & function.Well NICO gets old & by the grace of God get him stuck to ABBE(only bulldog/terrier type out of liSTOMPERxSTELLA) 9 months prior to his mortality. This breeding of 6, I couldn't pass on knowing the importance of preservation! The 4 female(Terrier, 1 rat), 2 male(bulldog/terrier, terrier) litter was of common black & red dogs but also fawn/black mask dogs coming from the cross in the previous generations of the dam. First pick was EL NEGRO FUEGO(FIDO) due to his form, like appearance & "characteristics" of previous GOOD dogs in his pedigree(STOMPER, etc, etc.)that have letters & acronyms next to their names on their peds. The dogs of the litter had different form but the ALL important function & WILL is there in heaps. Maybe it's been luck or GODS plan but today we walk behind the best catch dogs I've ever had on my yard.

What I'm trying to get at is that if u cram enough "good" genes into your program they will show you the merits of their ancestors if you have an eye for it. Doesn't hurt to not only see but to put hands on dogs from previous generations u are trying to produce or emulate. Just gotta stay faithful, keep an open, intelligent eye fixed upon producing better dogs for our kiddos to handle in their own endeavors

Long winded no doubt, not sure if any of it makes sense but I do hope maybe someone can read through the code& all that really matters is that it makes sense to me cuz I'm the only 1 walking these dogs

Take care

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[lawdawgharris]

Looks like this dog carries a good bit of the Nina gyp and the Jeko/Nina cross. It isn’t extreme, but the way that reads it should enough to have influence.

What makes these the best you’ve had in your eyes? I know what MY expectations of a catch dog are and I’ve been in the woods with some great ones as well as some that were said to be great that weren’t. At this point in your dogs, can you predict what you’re going to get out of each litter in style and type?


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[WalkerCurCat]

LawDawg, I was told by MANY that I would never be able to hunt these dogs with others due to fact of them catching more dogs than hogs. Far from the contrary!! Everyone may have a different outcome but any "gamebred" pup I've raised to catch & b in a pack has done just that. What makes these the best is that they are PREDICTABLE & they learned extremely fast!!! Anyone that has any bulldog knowledge knows of the traits certain lines of [ ] dogs have, so choosing a line that stays on the head is MUST. A dog that can take punishment without loosing its focus yo do its job. NO re-grip unless it's to get a better hold. Go out & STRIKE their own hog, 1 out type of dog if the handler has the heart from it. A dog that knows when it's time to party while the other BIG catchdogs who catch 10k a litter, sit stable unaware of the domain they wander. I'm not talking about the handle on the dog either I'm talking about its throttle. NO Governor!!! I can handle but some of yalls handle is IMPRESSIVE!!! Out of the Nico litter ALL that have ever worked have made believers although they weren't in the same form as their siblings. Fido is the best all around production because he is a culmination of work put in by all the dogmen that handle his ancestors. I kno where I'd like to go with him to IMPROVE upon or add to his offspring. If that doesn't happen in the first cross then he will b stuck back to his BEST offspring that is true to form of their ancestors. As good as a dog Fido has been & never once batting an eye at extended solo stays on an ear, I believe wind & leg can only improve upon the smartest dog I've owned. Plott pup is gonna give him a run for his money on smarts but time will unveil that truth. I appreciate u guys on here & I'm always up for the banter & shared knowledge

God bless thank u

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