New guy "blues"

A place to talk about coyote Hunting with dogs
Oak Ridge
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New guy "blues"

Postby Oak Ridge » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:34 pm

Okay, so I've been involved with dogs for 45+ years. Started off with pointers as a young man, when all of the birds died off I migrated to beagles....then to coon hounds, and most recently I've fallen in love with Original Mountain Curs that are used for both squirrel and coon hunting primarily. I've seen folks train them as coyote decoy dogs out west as well.

I've started hunting running dogs with three different groups of guys in my local area over the past year as well. To say that I love hunting with dogs is an unerstatement.

I don't know how to ask the guys that I'm hunting with a question without upsetting the apple cart and making it seem like I'm being critical, so I want to ask it on here and get opinions.

Out of the three different hunting packs that I'm hunting with, I see dogs with good foot speed, a couple of good trailing type dogs...a couple of really aggressive fighting dogs, and some that won't even bay a coyote.

My years of personal experience is likely clouding my judgement, but the one thing I have not seen in ANY of the running dogs is an overwhelming desire to HUNT for a coyote. Seems that jump dogs are so rare that they simply don't exist.... I'm talking about that spining on the lead strap wanting to go hunting type dog. All of the ones I see are laid back...will run if presented with a good track...but won't hunt out 100 yards when there is not a "good track".

Am I looking for a trait that simply isn't a priority with running dogs as it is in free cast tree dogs?
cfanno01
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby cfanno01 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:36 pm

I don't know much about running dogs as I use tree hounds for coyote but maybe the guys you hunt with have obedience trained them to stay close so they are easy to handle...or the dogs have learned that the handler finds the track then puts them on it because that's what they are used to. I have heard that running dogs (generally speaking) are not as apt to be great jump dogs and prefer a fresh track.
perk
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby perk » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:46 pm

Could be the traits in those specific hounds, could be the way they are trained/handled. Years ago we wanted our fox dogs (American foxhound breed) to cast out far as it takes to jump a fox, had some and seen more that would go miles to find a piece of game. Boys in other parts the country want them to hunt close so they can hunt a 10 acre soybean field, load up and go to the next 10 mins later if no strike, they didn't want dogs to cast, guys in some bigger country with roads want them to only rd hunt and cast out road once they smell a track.
I prefer my hounds to hunt close now, territory, roads and land owners makes a far casting dog more of a headache now than a help. Guys who deer hunt running dogs here have sogs that will cast out until they find a track, so it definately isn't a normal foxhound trait to hunt close unless trained that way and hunted with dogs that handle that way.
Perk
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Nicole Stark
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby Nicole Stark » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:42 am

Wow.

I am glad to see this question presented because what you asked about was roughly what I expected to get by changing my focus over to hounds. It's all I've known for a decade, I liked it and wanted to never be without it again. The answers provided so far have put perspective on how having access to literally hundreds if not thousands of acres and with few, if any, restraints changes the picture entirely.

As a result of having unfettered land access the dog I cut my teeth on (mostly I let the dog dictate how, when, where, etc.) presented to me a picture that until now was what I thought to be a basic and probably low standard that most hunting dogs worked from. I assumed that was a fair assumption to make because while not actively used for game today, they once were used for big game. Whatever was there came natural to the dog and this is what I thought basic hunting performance might look like in hounds. I see now how naive that was.

Another thing eye opening to me since my scent background is in manhunting and fundamental detection work, the thought of locating a track for a dog never even entered my mind. When I read why that was, I realized how much a clear perspective can change ones view of things.

Oak Ridge thanks for coming here and asking the question. While understandably training would influence what you are seeing, it's a curious revelation to me that the prey sequence in hounds would differ so much from what I expected it to be. From the sound of things in some areas it's been segmented, amplified, or turned down through selective breeding - just like every other specialty breed. Go figure… :?
Oak Ridge
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby Oak Ridge » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:30 am

My real question is this: "Which comes first, the chicken or the egg"....

It truly appears that (at least in my area of the country) the "go hunting" has been bred out of the dogs.....or in our haste to get a race going we make it as easy on the dogs by finding a fresh track in the snow, or sending folks in to walk out a section of timber and jump the coyote for the dogs.

Our hunting just about comes to a halt when there is no snow on the ground. We drive around in the early morning to find fresh tracks crossing the roads, or looking for coyote standing in a field or along a wood edge. If I could find or make a dog that had an overwhelming desire to FIND a coyote.....that dog would be worth it's weight in gold. The dogs we have have no problem running a jumped dog....but they are simply lazy in the "go find one" category.

I wish some of them were obedience trained, as there area few that we simply groan about when they are put down....catching them becomes a multi-person exercise.....so I know that is not the issu.
cfanno01
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby cfanno01 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:57 pm

I think you kind of answered your own question...You say you guys drive along and either look for a fresh snow track or a coyote standing out in a field to get the dogs started...These dogs have learned that's how they are supposed to hunt. If that's how you hunt with them every time, that is how they will hunt. How often do you guys attempt to "free cast" dogs? If you want a dog to go out and free cast long distances looking for a coyote, I would find guys that hunt that way and they will have dogs that suit what you are looking for.
scrubrunner
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby scrubrunner » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:53 am

"Catching them becomes a multi-person exercise"
What are these dogs doing if not hunting while y'all are trying to catch them?

I think the group you're hunting with have more or less trained or conditioned the dogs not to free cast. I have a few dogs from bloodlines that freecast long and wide but I road hunt mine in front of the truck, if the truck ain't moving mine ain't hunting but their parents, littermate ect. Hunted by guys that free cast, free cast.
My reasoning for roading the dogs its the easiest way for me to trash break and know what they are running. I see the pups strike trash while the old dogs stand there looking at me. I can stop it before it starts. Most of my free cast buddies don't really care what their dogs are running, as long as their running it right.
Your buddies might have kept a close handle on the dogs starting out because of deer running problems, now their dogs are conditioned to the way they were trained.
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mrburneisen
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby mrburneisen » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:17 pm

I have a dog that will free cast and find a coyote, she weighs about 50 lbs, so you can have her delivered to your front door for $986,612.17. All joking aside, my Grace is a treeing walker coonhound out of coon dogs from the great State of North Carolina. Maybe the solution to your problem is raising 1 dog trained for free casting, out of good free casting dogs. When you can't find a track to run, turn that dog out to work for you. I had a great coyote run on Martin Luther King day, my dogs ran that track for a good 2 hours, finally ending in a pine thicket on a creek bottom. My boys and I found a nice spot on a ridge that was clear from a control burn in the National Forest a couple years back, great spot for listening. I don't claim to know much of anything about hounds, I'm a beginner. As much of a pain as my Grace can be to catch sometimes she did strike that coyote track about a 1/2 mile from where I turned her out. I struck out this bear season, we worked really hard trying to find fresh bear tracks by keeping the dogs on the leash and marching all over these mountains, and as soon as bear season ended I went back to free casting. Honestly, it was kinda miserable trying to keep that dog on a leash for an 8 hour hike when all she wants to do is find her own track to run.
Northrunner
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Re: New guy "blues"

Postby Northrunner » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:50 pm

How old of a track is fresh to ppl you hunt with? I hunt fairly similar, look for track that I think is from the night or early morning an let a dog or two cold trail. I have a few running dogs that will stick to a cold trail for miles if they don't run into something better before than. I have seen them go over 2 miles on same track and jump n catch many times. I think there is enough hunt and will to find that critter, I use to free cast half the time and I can definetly say same line of dogs were better at it when I did of course, know I let em out and they looking for the track or the critter running. I think getting the best of both worlds is pretty difficult to maintain.. Another example is I start my pups running loose, they naturally cast into woods usually around 3-5 months and start running critters, when there off hunting consistently even by themselves once in while I tie them up. When I start them they spit rocks in your face when you cut em but after 2-3 months of hunting with older dogs there nose to ground trying to grub a track out to find that critter. If I would start the same pups with a group of freecasting dogs I believe they would make good casting dogs. An older dog has ton of influence on the younger generation, just like a parent does to there child. Yes some are rebels and go there own way haha sorry for rambling

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