Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

A place to Talk about Fox Hunting and Running Dogs.
Andyva
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby Andyva » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:56 pm

I don't have near the experience as others here, but I follow advice of an old timer and look for a good tight footed pup above all else. I like one that comes up to the fence over one that hides in the box. My thoughts on deer running are, if it can't run a deer, what can it do?
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby julio25 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:12 pm

When it comes to picking pups, undertheradar hit it right on the head. If I don't like something about a pup, chances are I never will. Onthe flip side of that, I have been guilty of giving one too much of a chance because there was something about the dog that I did like.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:44 pm

Undertheradar, my boys are GROWN, I like fox and cat hunting better than the deer hunting but love the time with my sons deer hunting. Julio, my brain merged your post and undertheradars, I agree and do about the same as your first post except I've kept several in the past that for some reason I didn't like them much but but after hunting some I sure changed my mind.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby julio25 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:13 pm

Scrub, I have one now that every time I am at the point of moving him, he will do show off enough that I decide to give him just a little more of a chance. Almost as if he knows he is about to get cut from the roster. The problem is he just isn't consistent with it. When he decides to do it, he can run a piece of game like it should be. Other times he is just there. There is no rhyme or reason to the days he turns it on or not. I know I have given him way more of a chance than I have given other dogs. He is old enough now to be doing it on a regular basis and I should have made the decision awhile ago and as I am typing this, I have made my mind up.

So, how long do you give a hound that starts well, has all the tools, tons of potential but just seems to never reach his full potential?
undertheradar
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby undertheradar » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:26 pm

macedonia mule man wrote:Undertheradar, explain the difference between drifting and swinging and the need for both to keep game moving.


To the best of my ability I'll try...
Under my definition, a swinging dog is worthless on keeping game moving, unless the game is extremely dog smart and the pack has let him get away. That's where a swinger can come into play and go way out yonder and get back after the game.
Did I mention I like fast, hard running, track minded hounds? I DO! Dogs that swing far out more often than not swing too far away from a ducking or run down piece of game and will cause you to get after another piece of game. I don't want a dog out of place period. I want them all in the same area of the race. I don't want one behind nor do I want one that's way too far out front ( if I had that problem I might hunt just that one and sell the rest lol) But I CANNOT STAND one that uses the road a lot and plays the pack. In a perfect scenario, all the dogs in the pack would have the ability to run with or with out the help of others and would trade off for the front. One or two of them would cast forward ahead of the pack ( maybe 30 or 40 ft??) or drift beside the track( 10-20ft?) just enough to take a link out the chain on a ducking fox. I don't want 5 links out at one time, that's out of place in my point of view. Just enough to put pressure on the game and make the pack say "ole so and so has got him, lets pull up to him. I like constant steady pressure and not fast bursts of extreme speed and then have a lose, check, or bother (what ever you call it, depends on where you're from. I call it a miss.
Now Im rambling
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby julio25 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:06 pm

Undertheradar, keep rambling.......I like it.
scrubrunner
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:30 pm

I know most cat and fox hunters on here say they want one or two swinging dogs in their pack, I think what they are talking about, in my world we always called those kind a cuttin s.o.b. They don't stay around here long. In a perfect scenario I want all mine on the track, giving tongue, straining for the front. Even on a lose, check, miss whatever you call it I don't like one to immediately swing way out to find it, I want them to hunt it where they lost it and cast out from there. But they need to do it fast. Haha
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:57 pm

Undertheradar, I agree to some extent about those swing dogs, but always have had one or 2 in the packs we hunt, those swinging dogs cause a lot of game to get caught, they can get you up on top of one as long as they hold the track once they find it. A good swinging dog is moving forward in an attempt to catch their game not just follow it around in the brairs, some will swing too wide on a dodging fox, but the good ones will learn once close you gotta stop swinging, then hammer that track like they should. I've never seen a pack of dogs CONSISTENTLY catch fox in my neck of the woods with out a dog or 2 that swings wide. For that reason I'll keep one, unless he is consistently messing up a chase.
Another thought, dogs not pulling up to the dog that grabs it in front, (at least once they reach the spot the Fox has been covered by another dog), they are as detrimental to the chase as the dog that swings wide. Takes all kinds to make a team, I think anyways
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:07 pm

I'll give an example of what I'm talking about from a successful hunters pack. In Arkansas and in Florida I have seen the Corky dog that belonged to Mr. Clay, swing 300 yards ahead of the pack and grab the track, and hold it, barking every breathe, turning left, right, and back with that cat, til the pack honored him and got there, sometimes it took 5 minutes for them to cut across some of that terrain and jungle to get to ole Corky, but he never made a miss, thus putting the dogs closer to the cat and finishing the track. The dogs before we're running the cat, but he got the pack up there where they were breathing the same air as the cat. Oh and on a dodging cat once broken down, he would turn with the very best of them. He didn't swing himself out of races at the end.
Which is a more effective way to finish a track, getting close and putting pressure or following from a distance? Now this isn't the case in every chase, of course there are times cutting/swinging isn't warranted or necessary, but a good smart dog who likes to catch can help pump the wind out of his prey much quicker.
I had a old dog just died, smartest dog I've owned probably, was great jump dog, liked to catch, knew how to swing, caused a lot of foxes to get in trouble, and admittedly threw some away too, but man he could get you up on your game if your dogs were willing to honor, every pup out of him, has had an uncanny knack to swing forward and get us closer to the game, got grand pups out of him now that are looking the same way. That type of dog can eat food at my house every day. Just my opinion
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
scrubrunner
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:51 pm

I can tell ya if I keep hearing one of mine fall in 50 yards ahead of the pack, you can come get it cause I ain't feeding it.
Now I'm with ya on if a dog does cut, cheat, swing, whatever you want to call it and get ahead the others need to shut up and get there however they can.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby dwalton » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:00 pm

I agree with undertheradar i do not want a swinging dog but like a dog to drift a track, if he misses a track he cuts back for the scent funnel. On bobcat a swinging dog can totally over shoot a track. In country with a lot of bobcats it will come out with a different cat at times. I want a dog on a track not over running it, over running a track will cause your cats to duck and dodge and that will cause looses. If a cat does not get a break from a loose it will be caught in a short period of time. Dewey
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:47 pm

Scrubb, if you find a good one and that's the only fault you know where to find me, I'll drive the 10 hrs to pick him or her up haha
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
undertheradar
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby undertheradar » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:16 am

Yeah i guess it would be hard to X one for swinging 50 yards if he could hold it. But 300 yards? I couldn't stand that unless that was just a fluke. I don't know how the pack could hear him unless he had a great mouth. I would feel if I had corky that I had one very good, cat smart dog and he was causing the pack to look better and at the same time hindering the performance of the rest of the group by relying on him to get underneath the game. I don't know. Hell if I had a good dog of be hunting right now instead of talking about it
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:49 am

I'm sure one like that will show up one day. I'll let you know Perk when it does. While you're here we'll go to the club and try to catch a cat.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby david » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:50 am

I thought I could get through this exchange without making a post, and especially since it is in the fox section and I know nothing about fox hunting. But when I see one of my favorite dogs named, I can't resist. I have spent a lot of time around Corky. I like his personality, and I like his style.

I am ignorant of the workings of large packs, but I understand those who would cull any dog to the rear or to the front or to the right or to the left. I understand the compliment that "you could throw a blanket over the pack."

But I hunt for the entertainment. And dogs like Corky entertain me. I have had a couple others that I found extremely entertaining. They were dogs that would leave the pack if they thought they could catch the cat by doing so. Sometimes I couldnt figure out what they were doing, and that was entertaining to me; Especially when they came up with the cat in what seemed like magic. These things make me scratch my head, and they make me smile, and they give me things to puzzle over and marvel over for as long as I have my memory. In every case, they were more intelligent than the average dog. And when I could figure out what they were doing, I sometimes felt like that is exactly what I would be doing in that situation. Like I remember watching Corky, quick as lightning, make a huge and perfect circle around the milling pack on a bad loose. That is what I would have done. It made me smile

It still does.

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