Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

A place to Talk about Fox Hunting and Running Dogs.
southern fox
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby southern fox » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:46 pm

haven't been on here in awhile but I got to say something on this topic ! catching game on the ground takes a lot of hunting with a pack opf dogs , but when you go with 60 it becomes easy , I know how a lot hunt in north Carolina, Virginia and tennissee , know quite a few people up there , sold quit a few dogs to people there , one thing the game aint the same , a lot more fox there than here , and the terrain is different , farm land is what a lot hunt and I have seen pictures from a days hunt with 5 or 6 fox and a coupla cat on the tail gate !!! but you bring them same champions to these briars , hahaha its a whole different ball game then . a man that says he catches 6 out of ten cat he gets after on the ground with running dogs, I'm bring all my gyps to his best male cause I want what he has , and if he wants to show me bring them on cause I got the place to be shown at , I been doing this a long time , I don't believe anybody has any better running dog than the next if there hunted right , I have caught a lot of cat on the ground but you can believe it don't happen everytime you go , or every other time you go , it boils down to senting conditions and dogs , and there not always the same , that's why its called hunting and not catching , I see it like this a army can dig a ditch in a hurry versus 5 men , when you have a field trial on the outside with a lot of dogs game is going to get ate , cause the woods are full of bushwackers , the first 5 will be running the game and the others are running dogs butts , the a lot will be in the roads or waiting cause they get smart , and those are the ones that will cheat the others that's running out of the game cause they will eat him when he comes to the road
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:18 pm

Southernfox, I agree in 60 dog pack, however you said no running dogs are different they why do you hunt those line bred dogs y'all have caught game with and not just get something from every pen hunter out there, I'd assume it is bcuz you know some running dogs are better suited for this game. There are 4 outside field trials in my area that happen yearly. 3 national affiliated 3 day hunts, the hunts happen in some of the same area I hunt, never seen the 300 dogs the new central va used to have catch a Fox, or when there were 350 at the USO here catch a Fox, but when they have that 100 dog deer proof fox dog hunt game gets caught.
However I agree in my part of Va, which isn't flat crop country like you make va, nc, and Tenn out to be, we don't catch everybody we jump on the ground, but we do put an end to a lot of the races. And get beat well.
But come on are you really saying you can take a pack of dogs bred for speed and drive in the pen, and be successful as you are now?
Happy hunting
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
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macedonia mule man
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby macedonia mule man » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:11 pm

I'm hunting a big yellow ring neck male that was pen hunted until I got him in August. He was banned from the pens down here because he was killing game when they had a bay up. Man gave him to me because he didn't want to run deer. It took him about a month to settle down and start showing some things I like. He learned to road really quick and that could have been from running roads in the pens. I'm using him as my start dog and I'm satisfied with the way he is doing. Looks like he is pretty well naturally broke on deer and looks like he prefers fox or cat and cayote. Anyway he has proven to me some pen dogs will work outside. I'm with southern fox, I think most any pure fox dog bloodline will work inside or outside. I have no idea what bloodlines this dog came from. All I have ever done is tone him for handling. Second time he responded to truch horn and tone, came and loaded. I guessing he is probably2-3 yrs old. He was started in pen and run in pen for a couple of years I'm guessing.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Mule man, that mean you are willing to sell the others yo u own and go to all dogs that have been run in a pen?
I've seen pen dogs that could run a piece of game outside the wire, and wasted time on many many more that couldn't.
I'm more interested in hunting dogs bred to hunt handle trail and pack up on game like I want. A dog bred to win a trophy may work, but I ain't wasting time to try that anymore. Jmo
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
macedonia mule man
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby macedonia mule man » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:48 am

Perk, from what I'm seeing out of him up to now is just as good as I have now or have ever had in the past. he may go over the hill or around the bend tomorrow but he has only been getting better every time out. I don't really know if he was pen bred, I know he was pen started and ran in one up until the time I got him. I don't usuall keep over 8-10 started dogs and yes I would replace all but 2 with dogs out of the pen if they were like him.
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:24 am

Have tried quite a few pen bred dogs, some I got as pups and raised, some grown. Some made useable dogs but none made what I wanted.
several years ago I got 2 that was mostly outside bloodlines, was 2 yrs old when I got them but had only been run inside, it took a little while but both made good hounds. still have 1 of them and have bred several females to him.
From my experience, pen bloodlines lack, number 1 nose, number 2 brains. They don't have the nose to make the turn and they don't have enough sense to figure out where they lost it, just goes on and hunts something else.
Most even did that when I tried to make deer dogs out of them. to me that's pretty bad.
Muleman, I hope yours works out good for you. Sounds like he will.
macedonia mule man
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby macedonia mule man » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:12 am

Fellows, I hunted fox with some old men in the early 50s and they had the same discussion we are having now. There wasn't any fox pen dogs then, but the discription they gave for a sorry dog was the same thing that we all agree on now. I was around 10-12 yrs old at that time and I don't remember all the details but they were continually culling heavy for those reasons. That was probably 25 yrs before the fox pens.i believe starting a pup in a pen when they are 4 months old and continue running it under those conditions has more to do with bad habits than breeding does. I guess we could talk about this till hell freezes over but the bottom line to me is its hard for me to find 8-10 good dog regardless where they are bred .
JTG
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby JTG » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:01 am

The fox hunters that I know, that hunted from the early thirties to the late seventies culled because they could not and would not feed them all, so they would keep only the best. They would rotate a single collar on the young hounds that hunted well, until only the best young hound left, had a collar. Also they would cull every female pup of the litter, once they had a good pack with several top females that could be used for breeding.
macedonia mule man
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby macedonia mule man » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:43 am

the people in that area I'm talking about who owned large packs of fox dogs , had money. They didn't worry about the price of feed, they were dedicated dog men. Sawmill owners, bankers , bootleggers who made money. They fed a lot of cracklings cornbread mixed with Jim dandy dog ration. I believe you could buy 50 lbs of Jim dandy for 1.75 in the early 50s. Some only fed 3 times a week. They had large pens with 3-4 hog type feeding troughs scattered out. Trough were probably made out of 1x8 white oak about 8 ft long. Fill them to the top with dog food three times a week. Kinda like , eat all you want as long as it last. The dogs seem to hold up pretty well . All had bloat after each filling. There was a lot of accidental breeding in those pens. They had men that were supposed to be taking care of the pens but you know how that works. I don't think there was a whole lot of planned breeding in that area.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:26 pm

I guess when I think about dogs from back in the day the people around here seemed a bit different, they didn't seem to need to cull much. My grandfather kept 10 or so, was a poor dirt farmer, raised cattle hogs and Fox dogs, had a couple pens but left them out in the yard mostly til it was time to hunt. And they consistently caught, holed, or treed foxes. Never once heard him discuss or anyone I know of that knew forever hunted with him discuss a need to go find a better dog or breed to something else. What those hunters had got the job done.
Don't remember my dad or his buddies culling a lot in the 80's from the stock they ran. Old man in neighborhood, local legend would start the spring of it with young dogs that would punish a deer by fall of that year those same dogs could catch a Fox and were stone broke. He would sell his best dogs if people stopped in to buy hounds and each year be able to fill his pack with young dogs to catch game, that doesn't seem to be the trend I see with today's hounds or hunters. Of course those guys prob hunted harder than most, one old man ran behind dogs the every where they ran would see the catch on most occasions, how many of us have that kinda drive, I get in those briars but I ain't running in them like that.
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby julio25 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:45 am

Perk, I have listened to my grandfather tell me stories of his dad doing the same thing. Where the dogs went, he went. Told me how he was always around the catch when it happened. Then go coon hunting all night. Tough men. My granddad told me that his dad seemed to never stop working. When he did stop it was only to go hunting and that he went at that harder than anything else. Tough men that grew up in tough times. I wonder what my great grandfather would think about the way things are now and what he would think about these plugs I am hunting now.
Dan Edwards
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby Dan Edwards » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:46 am

perk,

2 things.
They ran loose and they culled themselves. Raise your dogs like that and you wont need to cull either. There are fellas still around like that today. Not a whole lot of 22 shells being used on their yard. No need for it.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:59 pm

Leaving pups out is certainly a great way to start pups. However he would turn all the dogs loose in the yard, old dogs too, just kinda lounged around under the trees in the shade.
I like my dogs now, probably are a touch faster than his, but I would trade my dogs for his performance wise any time. Those dogs finished races and had meat.
He had an older gyp get bad about fooling with coons one time had been a great gyp, the kind of you went to a hole and didn't see here you get the shovel to dog her out, which he did many times and when he got to her she had a dead fox in her mouth, anyways he gave the gyp to a man who started and broke several coon dogs with her hunting coons.
Dogs then WERE different than now, and I often wonder sometimes if the choices we make as breeders haven't actually hurt the breed overall where we had the best of intentions to improve it
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
'Day Light and Eye Sight DONT LIE!'
scrubrunner
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby scrubrunner » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:51 pm

Tennessee Lead, July and their get ran down their game and caught it with style, if the history we have of them is true. Hard to improve on that a whole lot. The majority of hounds bred today are not bred to do what we do. I'm sure there are bloodlines out there bred to hunt on the outside that are as good as the hounds of old. They may not be registered or if they are they may not have any well known hounds close up in their pedigree but Lord knows, I hope their out there somewhere.
I have had hounds that were better than the ones I have now, but like Dan said, for years mine run loose, they'd run themselves down so bad I'd have to pen em up to put some weight on em. I have some now I think could be as good if they had the chance but I can't hunt em like that anymore but they are getting better each race they run.
This starting over with 1 old broke dog and some pups has been tough with the lack of game where I have to hunt part of the year. It's been about 2 years now but their getting to where they can run a fox like it's supposed to be run. I'm liking them more each time I go.
perk
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Re: Breeding. Raising, starting, culling

Postby perk » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:18 pm

Scrub, I'd like to find a man that breeds those good old style dogs, just for the conversation if nothing else. Some of mine haven't had a registered dog in their paper forever, are bred for outside, and I like them, that's why I rarely venture out to other things when I breed of start pups. Find it easier to get pups that naturally do what I want or learn to when they are out of dogs that I know do what I want. Like bay at hole or bark up a tree some, desire to catch, ability to easily be broken, turn with the track, not cast to far, etc.
Way to many people today in the running dog world think we have improved them over the years, way too many
'If the hounds dont catch him on top, It doesnt count'
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