UDWR LION STUDY 2013 YOUR OPINION???

[black eye]

I have spoke with a rep from the udwr and Utahs hound club concerning this new population study.

The udwr wants a population estimate of lions on the wasatch west unit (no sheep nor predator management). As well the northwest and southwest Manti unit (predator management units).

P.S. Predator management on a unit means that any lions should be eliminated to save deer or sheep.

The method used will be volunteer houndsmen from the hound club with dna gathering dart guns assigned to certin areas.They will hunt for a 2 week duration any days from now until May.

Reason for study is because of the houndsmen concerns of over harvest on these units.
The results of the study will be reported to the wildlife board. The people who are in charge of lion permit numbers.

I have a few concerns.

1.Why study a unit that is managed to harvest all lions?

2.Why start a study when all the snow is melting and success of catch is low? Waste of money and time?

3.If a volenteer runs into a pocket of lions and shows a few lions in an area will they increase permits? They have increased & combined permit numbers allot here lately. Basically we shoot ourselves in the foot!

This whole thing makes me wonder!


WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK OF THIS STUDY???????

[Neff]

It is very interesting and I would like to point a few things out;

* I agree with blackeye why start now and not at the begining of the hunt? I would dare say that some if not all the lions you tagged in lets say november would be killed when the HO starts and that would not look good for the DWR.

* Next i would like to point out that does'nt everyone that kills a cat have to check it in at which point they can and do take DNA? They already have the data....

* Why not do a proper study and collar some of the Lions on these units as well as others? perhaps funding? well is that not what all the money for Lion pursuit tags, LE Tags and lets not forget all the HO tags is for.

* Several people form Sanpete County took time off work last fall an traveled to SLC to attend Board meetings and try to get all the over killing shut down. At which point we was basically told to get screwed not going to change it. And I would like to point out that a DWR official at this meeting did in fact make fun of some of us who were talking to the board at the time. Bad deal it was the most un professional thing i have saw for a while.

* At this same meeting mentioned above the DWR changed the plan for elk and bison in some areas. Dont tell me you can't change stuff in the middle of a 3 year plan it is done all the time.

* The format has changed on the website let's see the numbers DWR Let's shut the units down that have met there numbers within the Management areas so as not to overkill some of the units and kill no cats in other units while meeting the DWR objective.

In closing perhaps if we had some trust in the DWR it might would help. Because from my experiances with them I have no trust and have been made fun of.

I am with blackeye it has to make one wonder what is really going on. (TRUST)

Thanks For your time.

[Oldmanindeepsnow]

I was at meeting, and will give them the rest of season doing DNA.
I thought the guy at meeting at least cared how many lions there were, But he did not give any numbers as to how many there should be there. I think it is to little to late.

[Dale T]

Trying to make sence of anything any of our state or federal governments does will only piss you off and make your head hurt!

[bears@uha]

This study is what we have been fighting for in Utah for a long time houndsman lion numbers dont match dwr lion numbers, we have been fighting tooth and nail asking where they are getting their numbers now they give us a chance to show them our numbers and sudenly it turns negative yes the study started late but if we prove the method it will run through the whole hunt next year I havent heard one houndsman in theese eareas say wow we have lions every where there are more tags allowed than we can fill right now and were killing every thing that climbs a tree so if the study backfires and theres lions under every bush and they increase tags we still wont kill more lions a coller study would only show select lions so does nothing for population estamate just dont understand why we dont want to prove wat we been saying

[ALEX]

Has the surplus in allotted tags and increased harvest leading to the plunging lion population ever been this severe in Utah? What were Utah's lion policies during years with healthy lion populations? How is the deer and elk herd doing statewide? What are surrounding states like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, etc doing toward sound management of lion hunting that Utah isn't these days? It's nice to see that you all care about proper management of lions and are portraying houndsmen in a ecologically sensitive way. You would think DWR would listen to your guys' suggestions, as it is hound hunters that make up nearly the entire demographic who hunt these cats.

[black eye]

We the houndsmen in Utah do know how the udwr get the lion numbers. Simple the harvest totals. Its the only numbers they have ever managed with.

I have talked with houndsmen that have run into pockets of lions and would like to keep it that way. If this study show these lions and the results go to the board well we all know the results. More permits for lions.

Again the only reason for this study is a direct response to houndsmens concerns on the Manti being over harvested.

When a unit is over harvested year in and year out that tells the population is stable. As opposed to units that stay open year round and never fill the permits means the lions are gone simple.

I feel a source unit with a stable population is worth protecting at all costs.

This study could go either way. Houndsmen will tell the story.

Prove your point or get more permits.

Careful what you wish for you are working for the udwr.

I hope I'm wrong!

How about a new idea just make the udwr follow the cougar management plan. It is calling for reductions of permits and less predator management units. This year is the review for the next 3 year cycle.

[Bplott]

I say there 15yrs to late.... hard to study something that has a depleted populations..... be more honest for them to hire archeologist's, lion numbers are running right there with dinasaur numbers!

[bears@uha]

Harvest results as of today on the Wasatch Manti management erea 58 killed 66 remaining and were in march snow conditions say were about out of the big kill season a 50% reduction in tags would not save one lion as they are over the counter.if theese 66 tags get filled wow.

My point is we have been saying the last couple years theres no lions and asking the dwr to look at it from our side as we are the ones that spend time with these animals and see the ups and downs in the population.

Glad to here the people bitching have big pockets of lions hid where no one else can find them maybee we should quite worriing about the population as it sounds like theres plenty.

right now harvest data and trees per day set #'s a dna study over time would give better data. collering lions only targets the lion thats collered not giving data on other lions.

last if management plan calls for 20% reduction in tags that would still leave 46 tags to fill .

[Bplott]

Utah USED to be know for record book world class trophy TOM lions! Every year you heard of several 15" plus lions skulls being recorded in the record books!! What happened? Thats the question everyone is asking...... well point blank greed is what happened supposed houndsmen killing what ever lion climbed a tree females, yearling females, yearling toms, boom all dead! Why because when a lion hit the ground money exchanged hands...... no reason to look hard for that trophy TOM when you got paid to let them kill what ever climbed and move on to the next paying idiot that didnt know better! Now the attitude is well if i dont kill it someone else will!!! STUDY OR NO STUDY we will never change the DWR and special interest groups or the amount of lions killed unless houndsmen are more selective about what we kill...... THE LION POPULATION isnt up to the DWR its up to US the guys and gals that own the hounds that catch these lions!!! Trust me i have argued with every DWR person possible and as long as we keep killing they dont care and will keep selling more and more tags to make deer hunters happy with the false belief that lions are the reason there are no deer..... nevermind the fact that there are as many or more deer killed on highways in this state then deer hunters actually harvest!!! Its a flat FACT that only YOU the houndsmen of the STATE can save our lion population!!

[black eye]

"Wasatch manti management area" is a combination of how many units permits combined?

The yearly overharvest was pre combining of permits with all units. Each unit had its own permit numbers.

The study is on 3 individual units wasatch , ne manti, se manti.

Apples and oranges in comparison. I am talking single units not combos. As some units have been pounded and others have been limited entry and have not been hit as hard.

Maybe the Sanpete boys could shed some lite on this udwr study that will be taking place on those units?

Do you all want houndsmen reps for the udwr counting lions for the next few years down there?

Why do the same people that have been telling the udwr the lion population has been reduced need to go out and prove these numbers?

Is the udwr calling houndsmen liars?

[black eye]

bplott wrote:

Trust me i have argued with every DWR person possible and as long as we keep killing they dont care and will keep selling more and more tags

Exactly!!!!!

So why go out and prove what we have been telling them all along!!!

The more you show these people the more houndsmen lose!!

[black eye]

Glad to here the people bitching have big pockets of lions hid where no one else can find them maybee we should quite worriing about the population as it sounds like theres plenty.

Just some simple questions not complaining sorry to offend you.
Lots of houndsmen have questions, this is the perfect place to get answers.

right now harvest data and trees per day set #'s

The amount of "adult females" in the harvest and tree per day is the trigger for reductions or increase of permits.

Management System*:
Harvested adult females above 20% reduce tags / quota by 10%
Harvested adult females above 23% reduce tags / quota by 20%
Harvested adult females below17% increase tags / quota by 10%

[bears@uha]

Management System*:
Harvested adult females above 20% reduce tags / quota by 10%
Harvested adult females above 23% reduce tags / quota by 20%
Harvested adult females below17% increase tags / quota by 10%

my question is if the management plan is followed and we reduce tags by 20% do you realy think it will save one lion as not only the study but we need to get the sheep unit #s seperated.

Bplott is definatly on the right page its houndsam killing all the cats and I dont think well ever change that.

[houndnem]

bplott is on the right track here. it don't matter what the dwr does, it's in our hands. I have seen over the coarse of the last couple seasons, just me and a handfull of guys changing our ways. so far in just a short period of time I see more young cats, more females, and less days cutting per track. keep making it a big deal not to kill females, and we will have our cats back where we want them. a couple of my honey holes are starting to overpopulate and hence will source the surrounding areas. the only problem, is a few big name outfitters in the state that are just going to keep killing every 50 pounder that climbs, and the sad part is the lions we save will probably just increase their kills. these are guys with the manpower, and the dogpower to kill over 20 a year, and they do. females, kittens, etc. how do we get them aboard with us? figure that out and well have happy hunting for years to come. or at least until the dwr figures out that we won't shoot ourselves in the foot anymore and hires the dept of agg to fill their quotas.