Breaking off of bears

[Uncle Dave]

I know this might not suit everyone's taste, but I am trying to keep my young (2 almost 2 yr old, one 2.5) pack straight on lions and not run bears. I am trying to pick some brains as to the best way to do this in bare ground country when I don't have a tried and true older dog to taddle on the young ones.

Trying to figure out how to balance scolding them off of bear while not destroying their desire to hunt and trail. As of right now they have seen a decent number of both lion and bear and I have shocked them off of bear trails as soon as I figure out it was a bear trail, just as I would if they were trashing something else. However, they don't seem to be responding as quickly as they did on deer/elk ( pretty well broke from them now). Possibly because it takes me longer to figure out it's a bear vs when it was deer/elk?

I'm thinking that driving further to areas that won't be likely to hold bears but still have lions might help get them more lion minded and less distracted w bears, but those places are few and far between in NM. I don't believe laying them up until hibernation will help them develop much. I am open to opinions of those who have experience in this.

And finally, at what point would you just concede that they will be bear and lion dogs and get them to someone who is looking for that?

Any help for a newbie would be great. Thanks

[Mike Leonard]

This can be a difficult situation without the aid of an older straight lion dog due to the very fact that you described. ( the inability to detect quickly that it is a bear track that they are detecting and starting.)

Here a couple of suggestions that might help.

1. If you have observed these young dogs working a decent lion track on bare ground how did they act? Most lion trails unless very fresh don't just come to life like a ball of fire. Remember in most New Mexico areas relative humidity is rather low especially during the long dry spells in warmer weather. Lion scent lays low however dogs may strike it off a rock or a bush that the lion has passed by and rubbed or stepped on, but then they will have to go right back to the ground to grub the track out. Bear scent is powerful and hangs higher in the air but also dissipates rather quickly with sun and wind exposure. Old experienced bear dogs do at times cold trail quite old bear tracks but younger dogs generally strike and want to fly on a good bear track but often pass right over tracks of a bear made over 12 hours ago or so. However on a lion depending on the size of the lion and the terrain may be trailed on tracks that old or even at times a good deal older. So watch those dogs closely and see how they are reacting to the scent.
2. Observe which dog generally does the striking. Ask yourself is this the dog that I have also seen really working hard on an older bare ground lion track? If so this is the dog you need to concentrate on because he is likely to develop quicker than the others into your lead lion dog. But if that first strike dog generally ends up with a track that he has up an running hard quickly he most likely is finding bear, coyote or even fox tracks (when you can't see the track) and blowing out taking the others with him. If that is the case hold him back and split them up and go back to the dog you have seen work hard on a cold lion trail and develop him. Possibly after you have him where you can really trust him you can work another dog in with him and the number one dog will be your leading indicator.


Developing a pack or even a pair of straight bare ground lion dogs without the aid of a broke straight up dirt dog is a monumental task even for a seasoned professional. And not all dogs even some with a background deep in this type of work make the grade. Be honest with yourself and go hunt with somebody who has some straight dirt lion dogs and observe how these dogs handle and work. The dirt lion game is a very specialized segment of the hound dog world and very few have the patience or time to build it from the ground up.

Possibly you can work that best dog in behind somebody else's broke dog. I know this is not always an option because a lot of dirt hunters don't mix packs and are reluctant to throw another persons green dog into the soup.

You will learn a lot about tracks and your dogs observing them and trying at this game but if you wish to expedite your progress the best thing I can suggest is save your money and find somebody who is willing to part with a straight dirt lion dog. Not many real ones out there for sale but it can happen.

Back in the days when I use to hunt bear I could never totally depend upon my hounds to even stay on an old dirt lion track if the crossed a fresh bear track it is just more fun for them to smoke out and get a hell roaring race going.

Once I found myself hunting the majority of the lions I do on bare ground, and often during seasons when bears are still out and about I had to change my program and my dogs out completely. And trust me I still have young dogs that blast off on the first fresh bear track they cross, but when old tried and true comes trotting back to me looking as if to say. It ain't me boss, then my fingers go to work on that Garmin like a first class accordion player! LOL!



Good Luck!

[1bludawg]

If its legal in your state put out some bait.You can use meat or some kind of sweets .Clear the area so that you can see tracks.You'll be on top of things this way and can nip it in the bud.
If you can kill a bear(during season of course ) or get a fresh hide tie your dog to it.Do one dog at a time. Get back about 30 or 40 yards and light them up with the Garmin.Its rough but i've broke some pretty rank coyote dogs this way.
If you know someone that bear hunts maybe they would let you tag along.When they get a good track going turn your dog in and light him up .
Sounds like your hounds have been running bear enough that you're going to have to get real serious about breaking them.Don't worry about breaking their spirit,you won't!
Instead of going lion hunting go out a few times with the sole intention of breaking your dogs off bear. Hope this helps and Good Luck !

[Uncle Dave]

Thank you both for the replies. I don't believe the problem is horrible yet, but I want to stop it before it gets to that point. They've been on 7 bear trails that I know of, one ending in a tree because they were out of garmin range before I found a track. Like Mike said, a few of those had been bee line races so they got zapped right away because I assumed it was trash before I even found bear sign. However, the most recent event started as two dogs opened pretty much simultaneously then trailed slow and quiet off of a ridge that I had found a decent scrape on. They trailed quiet off that ridge to the bottom and then opened up like madmen and that's when I saw a young bear pop out of the brush about 400yards in front of them. This one had me confused a bit and wondering if they had been trailing something else and just happened to bump into that bear or if they had been trailing the bear the whole time. I'd like to tell myself that they were trailing a lion off that ridge, but I never did find any tracks among the rocks to confirm or dispute that.

I realized that this would be a tough journey when I started but I plan to stick with it. I enjoy watching the progression of the dogs and I think that at least one of the 3 has the goods to be a topgun as long as I get them out enough and don't mess them up.

[Chris Todd]

We are lucky here in Arizona to have alot of good lion country with few or no bears. I have friends here in AZ that claim their hounds are 100 percent bear broke. But if you look at the country they hunt. And the way they hunt. You can see that their hounds have very limited opportunity to run bear. And when I say the way they hunt the majority of the time they are doing the striking for their hounds.
I think a person that wants bear broke hounds has to approach it like breaking their hounds from any other animal. Having hounds that are already broke to trail nothing but lion helps alot. The problem with shocking hounds just because they blow out on a track. Is that sometimes you strike a lion track that dogs can really move. I have been on countless lion tracks through the years where the hounds were hard to keep in hearing.
I know I am not really offering any solutions here. But I think the best you can do is purchase you a broke lion hound. That will leave the bears alone. There are fewer and fewer guys who just use their hounds for dry ground lion hunting. So that type of hound is getting harder and harder to get your hands on. The other option that you mentioned is hunting your hounds where there are no bear. Like I already said there are lots of areas in AZ that are good for lion and few bears.
I will tell you about a little experience I had a few years back. I was hunting in the fall. In an area where there wasn't even a bear season. Well wouldn't you know it we run right into a bear. And before I know every dog in the pack is after it. Before I can get them stopped they have it bayed up under a Cedar tree. I had heck getting all my dogs away from this bear. And in the end I lost a nice lion hound female. That had a hip broke and never was the same. The last good bear track I cut was almost two years ago. And I had just two hounds out of eight act like they were interested. They were two yearlings I was just starting. I think my luck with getting hounds to leave the bears alone is the fact that I have so few of them in the country around me.
I think getting to know your hounds and how they behave when striking a bear compared to a lion will help you alot. It takes a lot of observation. In other words alot of hunting to get to that point. Mike touched on alot of that. Some times in the heat of the action it can be tough. Of course bear sign tracks and scat is alot easier to find normally than lion sign. And of course the main thing is to be consistent. Once you have decided that you want bear broke dogs don't let them get away with it. There are guys here in AZ that allow their lion hounds to trail fox. There are so many fox here. That once you decide to allow your hounds to trail them that is all you will be doing. And I am sure in good bear country it is the same way.
Good luck Uncle Dave. And let me tell you there is nothing like the feeling of knowing when those hounds strike they have found the track of a lion

[justahunter]

As a bear Hunter I think your crazy . I hope it works out for you . good luck .

[Cowboyvon]

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Don't be afraid to use the juice on them. I have broken my older dogs of grizzly and I have a pile of them. Even if they see on on the road they will blow up knowing it is a bear, so I dump the box. The older ones come back to the truck right away the younger ones get the full meal deal.

I just so happen to live an area with a lot of bears so it won't take long to get them on a black bear. This is the best medicine for correcting behavior. If you dog quits hunting from electricity you need new dogs.

[mark]

Ive seen guys that could stop Grizzlies from hunting with electricity!