Az High desert

[merlo_105]

Idcurs, I said I would assume people could get it done in that country. Never once said or assumed you thought you had the best dogs around, most people with good dogs don't jump on the internet and insult a bunch of guys by saying there stuff is easy and they don't know what's tough. So I doubt I'll be in Arizona anytime soon with a dog so I'll pass but thanks. But I would be willing to ship you a camera or come down and video your dogs treeing a lion leaving it in a tree and coming back 72 hours later and trailing it back up. I have not seen real deal lion dogs trail a 3 day old track in the dirty desert. I doubt I seen any quality lion dogs most dogs I been around have been broke off lion. I will say with out a doubt Arizona is tough and rough and nasty and probably pretty hard to get a Bob caught but I'm sure there are people who can and strains ot dogs that can and do it enough where it could be considered consistent, maybe for that country but consistent enough.

[mark]

So why cant a dog that can trail a 3 day old lion track in the dry SW come to the coast and make these clueless dogs we have out here look like idiots?

[ridgerunners]

[Idcurs]

[pegleg]

Well.
A hound that is made to trail old lion tracks isnt exactly made to catch bobcat. Here anyway. The stick to it is counter productive. And in most cases i havent seen a hound of that type that was a fast track dog. I would guess their working style wouldnt be impressive in most areas as the most impressive thing they do is strike and move the track in the beginning. Its probably more important to the guy who has been trying for two weeks. If its not uncommon to get a track going every morning you wont be so eager to walk out a 3 day track.
A hound that catches bobcat in the desert regular. Will need desire, intelligence, and a quick track speed. With ability to switch scent as needed quickly. From ground to brush to air to whatever. A dog that relies on mostly or only one type/style of scent trailing will get left behind and lose a track quick.
They tend to be the type that can rig/strike easily and accurately. They also seem to always know where the cat is going or located. Its hard work so they either need to really love catching bobcats or make you happy.
There maybe more in the world then we think. If you only ever have to work at 60% capacity to be successful thats all you will do most of the time. So marks good dog or deweys or whoevers just may do it. I dont suggest theres one in every dog box though.
Maybe if there was a large demand for them people would sort through enough hounds and produce enough to get a solid type going. But why put that much effort into catching desert bobcats? Theres only 2 reasons that make any sense. 1 your just a nut that likes running bobcats 2. It helps improve your hounds
I personally have gone through a large number of hounds. And not every pup in a litter has the right proportion of traits to make it. I've listened to the team theory and it just doesnt seem to work smoothly enough to work in the short window of time you have to catch a bobcat here. The closest to this is just three or four dogs that can do it alone working together. With a young dog or two learning. Ive caught cats with bigger packs but it just tends to be where there is enough dogs that cat has no where to run.
And truthfully if you can't read your dogs and call them off with out them feeling "corrected" you are going to be running bobcat tracks all day everyday. Except those hot dry high uv days where you probably will either get good dogs killed or catch or lose any track you get by 8:30am.

[merlo_105]

Pegleg, What we were getting at whether lion or Bobcat why can't them dry ground Desert dogs come to the easy NW and out trail our Hot Nosed dogs. Either trailing Bobcat or Lion. I understand some of them Lion dogs just don't have what it takes to become Bobcat dogs some I sure would have made decent enough Bobcat dogs if that's all they were ever put on. Just curious why those dogs are so Cold nosed there but up here there just any other dog? Understand how the scent plays and works differently there compared to here but in theory if our area is so easy why aren't them dogs superior?

[macedonia mule man]

I've read a good many descriptions of a bobcat race from just about all areas of the USA and for the most part they sound the same. From what I've been told by a reliable source from New Mexico , snow will shift a catch in the hunters favor and changes the race completely from dry ground.

[Rossco]

Merlo 105. There have been quite a few lion dogs from the south west that have come up north and made great cat dogs. But it's also a whole different style of hunting. Sent doesn't tend to hold near as long in most places up north because of moisture. That plays your biggest factor in any cat track being ran days after it was made. And moisture also plays a huge factor in the amount of scent a hound can pick up on a hot track. That is why a jumped bobcat can keep staying out in front of dogs in dry arid places. Kinda like if you have ever ran a lion that knows to trot. You stand a lot better chance catching that lion in country with moisture verses dry country. There have also been plenty of cold dogs that have come from northern states and made great cat dogs in the south west.

[merlo_105]

Rossco, I understand all that it's just when people talk about how them SW dogs are so cold nosed there really not any colder then the next cat dog in the next state and so on. But even the case of they were so much colder nosed they should still be able to take a colder track here in the north west. Maybe not a 72 hour old track but something colder then these NW dogs. But they can't. So the old them sw dogs are as cold nosed as they get is a little extreme. Not knocking the Sw dogs one bit.

[Rossco]

There are a lot of cat hunters from different country that share the same blood. And in a sense you are right that a good cat dog is a good cat dog reguardless of the country it hunts. But it's the little traits that fit different country that makes the difference for where it belongs. That's what goes back to a dry arid bobcat being such a hard animal to catch. But I wouldn't say there aren't dogs out there that can do it. I know people that own them, they just don't worry about the internet

[catdog360]

If you guys re-read your description of how you hunt your dogs you will figure out why you can't catch any cats. You write it in black and white.
As far as guys from up North not being able to catch down there I would love to know who you had come down and try or did you import west coast and hunt them yourself?

[ridgerunners]

[pegleg]

Concentration on track. Ability to stay willing and true day after day of not finding game. Those are the traits i see missing in a lot of dogs brought to the desert. I cant say why dogs from here fail you. Thats for you to explain. Along with i know dogs think for themselves and arent just machines. So if they switch up some in different areas who is to know how or why unless the same hunter is running them no one would notice. And add very few dogs hunt exactly the same for different handlers. That has given me plenty of thoughtful moments in itself.
On the other hand ive only rarely seen any dog trail a older bobcat track and that seems to take special conditions. And there just arent many bobcat dogs in the southwest so any cold nosed dog you get is probably a lion hound. And as i said that doesnt even translate into a good bobcat dog here. So why expect it to elsewhere? One main trait is clinging to scent hard. A good lion dog has the time to do this and will. A bobcat dog has to take calculated risk on moving forward or lose the scent intirely. Just my opinions. What failings are you seeing in imported dogs?

[twist]

Until one goes and takes their own dogs to someone else's area they will never know now will they???????

[pegleg]

No. Going to a new area can make or break your pride. As bad as az can be there are worse areas ive stumbled into for hounds. People hounds just have limitations. Hot humid swamp jungle whatever you want to call it can be challenging to hunt or fairly easy. But ive never once to my knowledge had a hound finish a track much over 14 hours. Ive had more trouble in those conditions with them hitting pockets of scent and just not able to move.it. my dogs also hunt very close in those conditions . compared to their average. Could be partially due to my attitude. I hate hunting in it.
As i think about it.the same pack in different areas do hunt different. Open pine and oak country seems easiest to me. Trailing wise. If its ledges and canyons that adds difficulty.

Any ancient degraded soft stone or seabed looking area in the sonoran desert at low altitude is my personal crucible. The more limestone mix or "cal" it has the more impossible it becomes. On the flip side if its damp and early even pups will go through it at a dead run. If the area is to large to ride around and its 80 degrees + i call off and head home. I cant say its impossible to trail on it just highly unlikely . sometimes its dry and fluffy enough you can jog through sight trailing.

Malipai is probably the steadiest trailing ive seen however they start the track is how its going to go. In that type ground you can really have some of the best bobcat races where dogs are able to trail fast enough on ground scent .
Maybe the miscommunication comes from just how varied az terrain is in terms of hound work.
I could start a much bigger pissing match over that topic then any dry ground snow forest north east south or west arguement thats ever been.
But for the sake of not hearing about it for the next 40 years i wont.