Comparing hounds

[Ike]

There has been lots of talk about comparing hounds on this site, best we've seen or best we've had and I suppose the next question may well be best that we've heard about. These topics always brings up questions and speculation or comparison on whether this dog is equal to or better than another, so I've formulated a question myself........

Can you (we) compare a dog from the past to a dog of the present? Is that fair?

My poll question:

Is a lion hound that would run down a snow or open ground lion track, and one that has caught a few bears over it's life less than, equal to or better than a hound that has run off the rig platform it's whole life and will strike lion and bear from the truck and go locate and work that track?

[Big Horn Posse]

Your question is a little hard to understand there Ike..... If both dogs are trailing and treeing the game what makes a difference if they start it on the ground or from the rig? Basically the end result is the same so I do not know how one dog could be better than the other. Guess if you prefer to drive around and hunt then one would want a rig dog..... I personally prefer to free cast my dogs walking so hunting from the truck would do me no good. .

[blackpaws]

Your question is a little hard to understand there Ike

no disrespect but i agree. if that dog is good enough and straight enough to rig the track and then cold trail it, i would say that dog is more valuable to someone. i also think it varies in different parts of the country. where i hunt i would take a real cold nosed dog over a good rig dog. we don't run that much off of rigs just because we don't really need to. if i lived out west where a good rig dog would come in handy, it would be the other way around.

[Ike]

Clarification: I took a guy out bear hunting yesterday morning and it sprinkled on us from about daylight until noon. It would have been a good day to turn around but I thought what the heck, if he wants to continue on then so be it.

Just after daylight, I got to a canyon that I wanted to rig up so I dumped the dog box (six hounds) and grabbed my tracking collars and began to pull magnets. This guy's eyes opened wide and he said, "ain't you afraid those hounds will run off?"

I laughed and responded no!

"Well, I've hunted with a few guys and if they did that their dogs would scatter to the four winds," he remarked..........

So my question is based around is a dog more valuable or desirable if a handler can throw it down and control it, have it strike honest off the rig, call it off a track or tree, never needs a leash for anything but the kill as opposed to a hound that you have to lead to the track, even if that dog will run down the game it's after........

If the dog you have to lead to a track is equal to the dog that wil rig, strike and handle then I've wasted alot of time!

Ike

[fox hunter]

I like a dog that is strait from the rig but I also like a dog I can freecast or dump out of the box and say here with out a leash and point at the ground and have it come over and put its nose in the track im pointing at. I supose im saying I expect a hound to be well rounded and handle or they go down the road

[Big Horn Posse]

ummmm I think the topic should then be which handler is more valuable, the one that has a handle on their hounds or the one that lets them act the fool.

Anyone that free casts their hounds whether on horseback or on foot will tell you, you cannot successfully hunt hounds without them knowing how to handle. That is the reason I only use leather leashes. Good to give them a quick flick in the nose to remind them who is the Alpha in the pack....... ME

So does that clairfy your post??? Cause the second one you posted didn't make any sense either.

[Ike]

I like a dog that is strait from the rig but I also like a dog I can freecast or dump out of the box and say here with out a leash and point at the ground and have it come over and put its nose in the track im pointing at. I supose im saying I expect a hound to be well rounded and handle or they go down the road

My point exactly fox hunter, if you turn a hound loose and it starts the wrong track (or backwards on the right track) you better have that dog listening to you so it will come back and hunt for you rather than for itself. I took a game warden out chasing lions a few weeks ago in the dirt, and those dogs struck a bitch lion off the cast so I got out and showed him the track then called those six hounds back to the truck and put them hunting again. We drove on down the road and they struck a tom track and scratch next and I let'em run.

I pointed to the scratch from the truck and explained to the game warden which way that lion was headed and why before we got out of the truck, then I went and showed him the scratch and the track to back it all up.

My dogs all listen and hunt for me, truck to the tree and back again, whether it's from the rig or a ground strike off a free cast. That's the kind of dog I want in my back yard, and a hound isn't a finished hound in my opinion until a trainer has accomplished all of that.........

So obviously my vote was "less than", cause of the explanation I just gave..........

ike

[TUCO]

Ike, did they catch that tom you ran off of the scratch ?

[Ike]

No, I called them off that track from nearly a half mile away because of time. My game warden buddy told me he needed to be back in town before 2:00 PM, and so I told him if we got dogs out I'd run him back to town or pull them. Because those hounds were headed for the highway, and not knowing whether they'd cross and put themselves in danger, I called all six hounds in. I always go by the old saying it's better to live and fight again than to go down in flames.......

That game warden buddy asked me if those dogs were doing anything that others wouldn't do, and that was before I called them off the track. I told him I didn't know, and that he would have to go hunt with others and bring me back a report. However, after I called them back from that distance he shook his head and told me when he had hunted with other houndsmen, and the dogs were turned loose, that they didn't see them again that day.........

I hunted that same guy last winter for a tom after he'd asked to book a hunt with me. We hunted four days and had three tracks. On the first tom track it was noon before I cut loose, and he told me he had Jazz tickets for that night. Well, I kinda laughed. A few hours later he told me he also had a date for that game so we got close to my dogs and I called them out. The third day we ran down a tom sized track and treed it, but I never could get a look at it's butt to verify sex so we walked away. On the forth hunt we ran down another tom that we could verify the sex on and so I told him what I thought that lion was. He asked should I shoot it? My answer was shoot it if you want it or don't, doesn't matter to me cause I'd just as soon walk away as kill most of the time anyway..........

To answer your question Tuco, if a tom lion track is catchable my hounds are gonna catch it..............

ike

[Big Horn Posse]

WOW I have to say the wardens in UT must be honored to have you educate and to show them what direction the lions go by looking at the scratch. I figured most wardens have degrees in biology and zoology not to mention years of experience in the field. Your friend must have slept though the cougar section when he took those courses. I cannot believe how lucky you are to find where lions scratch near roads....... I never got that lucky... all the scratches I found over the years are in God awful places....... under ledges, and along ridges..... Guess I should have been hunting in UT all along.

So how is this all relivant to the poll you posted? What was the poll question again????

[krk hunting]

Big Horn Posse

You are a smart a$$. Sounds like you have a hard on for Ike. If you cant normally tell the direction the cat is moving from the scratch look a little closer. Piled up side is usually the wrong direction. Ike got asked the question.

Kevin

[Big Horn Posse]

I know this as so does every game warden in UT... That was my point. As for being a smart a$$ well I am just pointing out the facts here...... The topic of the poll is still yet to be clarified.

[bency]

I dont believe in leashes. The only time i use a leash is when were shooting out game. But i expect dogs to know their name and handle well, for any type of hunting situation (rigging, free casting, roading) or just in general.

[Ike]

It sounds like you pretty much put a finger on it krk, so I will not bother replying......

So are you deep into the bears yet krk? I hope so, and post up when you get time. I also bred that little Rui Li bitch to my Choco dog awhile back, and if any pups come from that cross it should happen around the second week of June. They should or could be some good ones, as she is faster than greased owl chit and he is one of the best rig and strike dogs I've ever hunted behind.........

And you are a man after my own heart bency, cause a dog that won't listen isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell...........


ike

[twist]

I like a nice handling dog as well as anyone and to me this is strictly a (handler issue) the dog has to be tought to handle load, rig walk out without a leash and so on these are not natural instinct that are breed into them like trail, and tree. But on the other hand if there is a Joe Blow who goes out twice a year and happens to tree a lion bear or what ever and his dog make him proud doing it thats great too even if he has to lead the dog to the track walk him on it for awhile and then lead him out from the tree and pick him up and put him in the dog box that doesnt make dogs any better its just lack of handling and exposure. If this makes someone day I say great. beats seating at home. later, Andy