Best mix bred dogs for big game?

[Mike Leonard]

C. John,

Holy smokes Hillary Clinton! Now that is a compliment if I ever heard one. LOL!

Seriously although deep down I loathe her she is very crafty, and along with that sneaky and smart nature she is patient and lays back watching at times like a bull gator with only her eyes showing a little above the murky water of the demogoggery of politics around her. As the ONE travels the world and spouts off great oathes of allegence to wicked countries that hate the American people, she nurses a sore elbow and watches and waits. But do not be mistaken as the party of the ONE loses faith in CHANGE suddenly she will erupt from the water as if a fat nutria just climbed on her nose, and she will make one hell of a splash when she does. So the moose hunter from the far north, and the Mitt man from the land of Romney better have their powder dry and their hammer cocked because she is one crafty old bag. LOL!


I just wonder what strain of hounds Plato ran? LOL!

[Dan Edwards]

What if some fella was to say that he belives the ped on some of these mixed bred or unpapered dogs more so than he does the "purple ribbon" bred dogs?

[Mike Leonard]

Dan,

I would most likely believe him. Why? Because he is not doing it for glory or money he is recording it as a matter of record to track the process and improve upon the system. I have a friend who's name I will not mention but I will say he is a top lion and bobcat man but even more than that he is one of the very best houndmen I have ever met. He is meticulous with his breeding and training and his records are impeccable. He does raise some registered dogs but he also has a grade strain of dogs he has maintained for many years that are line bred. WOW! I mean I look at his pedigree records it is not just names it gives size, weight, style of hunting, treeing, grit, weather adaptability and you name it for each dog. These are real records not just names and numbers.And knowing him as I do there is no soft soap or bs in there if they don't work they meet a quick end and are taken out of the gene pool. After seeing all of that and then seeing his dogs in action all I could say is. I WANT ONE!

[curdog675]

You are right Jeff money and greed usually ruin the stew. Heck look what's happened to the Cameron dogs already I get complaints routinely it seems these days with guys that are not happy with some of them for various reasons. Now this could be crosses after Cameron and who knows but I have sure had a rash of people complaining about mean Camerons lately.
Same can happen to any line good greif look what happened to the Nance line . they did really well in Wyoming for a long time and then poof the money the fame the pup factory I will breed your bitch for two pups and all this and there are a lot of guys that live right close to the guy in Wyoming but they will call some guy in Utah or California or New Mexico if they want a Nance bred dog that has some real hunting potential becasue it's parent and grand parent had to prove it or die.

I don't beleive the breeds were formed for color I think in the begining the cause was noble and some really great dogs were brought together and breeds were established, but then again color became a big issue. I don't mean just tri colored or reddish colored or black and tan. They had to be blanket backed red-headed and if not find a dog that is and breed to him. If them redbones are a little too light get a real dark cherry red dog with no white points breed to him. If the plott comes buckskin cancel him out and breed to a dark brindle. Regardless of how they hunted. Then lets get a darn bench show so people can see what hounds are suppose to look like. Well while we are there showing these dogs lets runs some drags and maybe have a coon hunt. Heck who wants to listen to old Blue cold trail a coon all night lets make it about how many coons can be treed in the shortest time. Lets not choose those cold trailers lets get them hot running track dogs that can pop up a lot of coon if they really cover the country.

Competition has ruined most of the breeds for the average big game or even country coon hunter. Go to any of the big hunts and all the breeds there will look and act pretty similar except for the over coat they are wearing.

There was a well known hound man from Louisiana that drove into my yard yesterday and all my hounds came running out. He said well you dang sure anin't size or color blind. LOL!
Dogs here from 40 pounds to 90 pounds ranging from black to white.

Heck variety is the spice of life! LOL!

I could't agree more! it is hard to find a COLD nosed dog anymore here in east TN. not many red bones, or b\ts either. either plott, walker, or english. competition coon hounds. med to hot nosed fast runnin tree dogs (slick or not) JMO

[bearhntwi]

I couldn't disagree more, cause papered dogs were develop through breeding color to color rather than good dog to good dog. This is the way I look at it, if a cross has some off colored pups and they are culled because of that color then the breeder doesn't have a clue which pups would have made the best dog. In fact, choosing standards by color may well take you away from the best hunting dog rather than toward it. If anybody can prove to me that all or any of the hound breeds we now hunt were developed through hunting ability rather than breeding color to color then lets see the proof..................

ike

I have to agree 100% on the issue of culling off color dogs.My dad has been breeding blueticks since the early 70's,when I started into the game helping and hunting with him some 17 years ago now he was always culling all the pups that stayed white and did'nt tick up.All the bluedog guys did this,We had a litter I talked him into keeping a male and female that did'nt tick up,they out performed the other 3 pups we kept from the same litter and never hunted any of em any different.Not saying this would be the case with every white bluetick but it made believers out of the guys around here.

[African]

The most important factor missing in this discussion is TIME.

Most are basing their opinions on the events in their lifetime or that of maybe 2 generations.Believing that a specific breed of hound was created and set in even a period of a single centuary is ignorant.

Take for example the english foxhound, it was hunted as a 'foxhound' for over 400 years before it was actually registered as a foxhound.During that period several thousand dogs and as close to as many breeders and hunters had an influence in forming the breed.
One chap didn't stumble apon a good outcross and then cash in!
This type of investment is what we are all benefitting from today.

So when you cross old yellow with little blue, and the result is favourable, I am sorry to say it had nothing to do with your hand!

In fact all breeds are still in the process of development and improvement.
Outcrossing occurs in all the breeds and in fact some are being infused with pure wolf genetics by means of artificial insemination.

By adding to a certain breed - that is a detailed documented conformation of physical, tempremental, structural, personality and hunting characteristics - one is giving back to the sport we take so much enjoyment and pride from.

Forgive me from adding to the discussion that has strayed from the original topic.

[Majestic Tree Hound]

I saw something in this Blue English Coonhound Long before I even knew how he was bred.. I saw some older Smokey River right on top along with a good Bawl Mouth ..

Latter I found out that he was the son of "Timber X Goofy" both in the top 10 of UKC Reproducing Records.. Not that it meens anything to me... Heck 4 guys working together can hunt the small NightHunts and put wins on a litter ..

But I was seeing something much deeper and by doing some research found out that he went back to Mountain Music Blue 8 times thru Vanzants Sam..

By Breeding to a Unrelated but Compatable Scent Hound you get 3 types of pups in one litter .

1. will be pups that are a more refined verison of Nearly pure English
2. will be pups that are nearly pure Bloodhound
3. will be pups that have Homoginized both Genetics evenly

Anyway I'l let you know in about 44 days LOL

The one in the "Saddle" is the English ...lol




Goose Creek Tack


Blu


But also I did this breeding Before I saw the Bill Green DVD .... Then a Ton of Bricks fell on my head ... Forget the Bloodhound !!!! I need French Blood !!!! (not that I didn't allready know that it just need to be beat in my head !)

[bearhntwi]

It takes lots of time of that there is no question.Though I never stated that in the last 35 years we've created a new breed or altered the breeds we hunt,We started with a Plott/Bluetick cross that to this day is one of the best bear dogs "I've" personally seen.He was bred to around 15 proven females and the pups were all hunted and culled hard,i'm now on the 6th generation of this breeding,by no means do I think I created a new breed or anything as self centered as that,though I do think we have started our own line.



This male is 3rd generation of our breeding.He's 75/25 plott/bluetick

[Dads dogboy]

Hello African,

After reading your latest Post to Dad, he said to put you at the head of the line in front of Mr. Mike!

Dad wondered if in your pedigree there migh be some Plato, Aristotle or perhaps a little GSG Einstein!

This is a really great post. Here in the states we are the society of the Quick Fix, Instant Coffee, and Live for Today. Very few Hunters are true Houndsmen, not because they do not want to be, they "Just don't have time". They need a Hound now or for next hunting season. The thought of mattings Ten years in the future or ten years in the past have very little relivance as to these Hunters, the time that matters is now!

Dad and I always look forward to reading your Posts! Keep us posted on how the White and Blue Hound Pups are coming along!

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy

[Lynxhunter]

DAMN Steve!!!! Save me a pup from the third group out of that litter......
- Seems to me you guys are going a bit "French" for the time being..... Though some of them French hounds are good, .....being the soluthion to everything..., I dont know. Seem to remenber a story 'bout some Talbots running the plains pretty well to....(And yes I do know they are French)

That beeing said, I am fed up of purebred hounds/dogs with owners trying to impress me in the woods. The quest for purebred hounds with good hunting skills is good and honourable, but moneyseeking, greedy people have f..... it all up. Since records been keept of hunting tests here in Norway, hunting hounds and especially hunting dogs, have never been so poore....

So, give me a pup, with parents that suit me in the forrest, no matter it being green, blue or orange any day, compared to a 2500$ dollar pup with nice looking parents.

Hans

[three rivers catahoulas]

There are alot of great thoughts on this topic, And I think African, PegLeg are are on the same page as I am and a few other folks on this topic. If your willing to put the time and effort into bettering your dogs, and not takeing short cuts just to put some pups on the ground, My hats off to ya.

[Dan Edwards]

What's the shortcut you speak of?

[ChasinTail]

What if some fella was to say that he belives the ped on some of these mixed bred or unpapered dogs more so than he does the "purple ribbon" bred dogs?

All I have to say to that is; Blood matters. Papered or not, the breeding is still very important. None of our dogs are papered, but they all have decent hunting blood and it shows.

That's not to say that I wouldn't take one of Mike's dogs when he breeds Chassie this fall..... right Mike!?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

All that matters to me is if you catch game consistantly. If the hound needs drags and caged critters to to learn to hunt I won't feed them, If they won't catch their own big game by a year I am not interested in keeping them. Breeding needs to be done to better the odds of catching more game with each litter, not to hang a ribbon on the wall or to put a trophy on the mantel. In my opinion ribbon chasers for the most part have taken the hunt out of the hound.

[bearhntwi]

All that matters to me is if you catch game consistantly. If the hound needs drags and caged critters to to learn to hunt I won't feed them, If they won't catch their own big game by a year I am not interested in keeping them. Breeding needs to be done to better the odds of catching more game with each litter, not to hang a ribbon on the wall or to put a trophy on the mantel. In my opinion ribbon chasers for the most part have taken the hunt out of the hound.

Amen Brother!