Raising lion quotas will save the deer - don't cha know....

[catdogs]

Funny, when deer numbers drop, there must be lions everywhere! No mention (in article below) of coyotes or long, cold, wet Springs... Thats the problem IMO! I've heard from many FWP guys, wardens and biologists, that they intend on raising lion quotas in MT significantly next year.

Article:
http://www.missoulian.com/news/state-an ... 03286.html

[pegleg]

upping quotas is a easy pencil pushing solution that requires no field work or breaking down all the causes of low deer numbers. when a biologist goes int the field they tend to focus intensely on one or two aspects of a problem. this is how they are trained and in a sterile time limited environment it works well. the problem arises from the many variables that are present in the field this is why all experiments are done in isolation. it's way to much work to work out each and every variant. that said if you feel cougar numbers are to low in your area slow your harvest and encourage your friends to do the same. if the numbers are high go ahead and hunt. we can't control it all and in most areas deer hunting has more political sway then we lowly predator hunters.

[MTblack&tan]

Its so easy for everyone to point the finger at the lions. I agree with you, pegleg, there are too many factors. It is an easy out for the biologists to up lion quotas, easy way to ease the minds of the concerned deer hunters. I wish the houndsmen would govern themselves, as you said. Problem is, we have too many guys that want to kill anything and everything. All we can do is do our part to select harvest and hope the ones we leave don't get killed the next day.

[Powder River Walker]

Well it has to be lions because the wolves stay in yellowstone and dont travel north or east or south or west, HA HA HA. just ask the fish cops.

[Brady Davis]

Utah is a prime example of how raising lion quotas, and almost destroying entire lion pops on certain ranges does NOTHING for the deer herd.

[trakntree]

Kind of interesting, the outfitter that was quoted in the arcticle is also a houndsman. The state documented him turning in a sub adult tom and sub adult female at the begining of the season. The female, the outfitter harvested himself. Also, I understand that this outfitter originates from the western part of the state. I wonder how many fork horn mulies he has killed?

I was just having the conversation with a friend a few hours ago and according to the bioligist on the CMR, the mule deer numbers have be increasing the past few years.

Where do these reporter come off reporting this S@#T? The guy that reported this must be friends with the one that wrote the arcticle in the GF Tribune about the 200# female that was killed near Hays...................

[MT.music]

seams to me there use to be a lot more deer and a lot more lions back in the day i think most of the deer are getting ran over 2 or 3 new ones every morning buy my house and if every one would stop putting kittens on there wall that might help the lions out

[Hound_Crazy!]

Yeah here in Idaho they will just take the quotas off and now all a person can find are cyote kills which everyone thinks is a lion kill.

[Doogie]

imagine that the most liberal paper in the state, vilifying the lion and not a peep in there about their precious wolves.

[Birney Bobcats]

I live in the heart of the Lion country for Southeastern Montana. We have one of the larger quotas, at 25 cats. Five to ten years ago I could go out most any morning and cut a track with in 10 miles of my house sometimes 2 tracks. Over the past few years I have noticed that it is getting harder to find tracks. Most land owners in the area think a good cat is a dead cat. The size of cats being taken in the area are in the 100-130lbs range, comparable to the 150+lbs cats that were taken regularly in the past. As of this season I have yet to cut one good track. Our deer numbers are good our elk numbers are through the roof. I have been in contact with our wardens in the area expressing my concern that cat numbers are down considerably. I thought I would share what he said in return.

You touch on some common concerns from other lion hunters. At one time I was greatly concerned with the number of lions that were being taken in the Ashland area of the Custer National Forest. I have since visited with one of our research biologists in Helena who is a leading expert in mountain lions. The most recent data from studies conducted by Montana FOP and South Dakota State has helped lessen my concerns. Basically the fecundity of lions is greatly dependent on their densities, so if there are many lions in an area then the ability of a female to produce multiple kittens and have them survive to become adult lions is less than if there are fewer lions in an area (to a point - as long as the densities are not so low that females have difficulty finding a male to mate with). Also, because lions travel great distances (often several hundred miles) to disperse (in order to locate an unoccupied territory), if an area is being harvested heavily (referred to as a SINK population, such as the Custer National Forest), it will likely be repopulated on an annual basis as long as their is a SOURCE population (a population where there are more lions being produced than territory available). An indication of this may be a harvest of younger lions in the SINK population year after year. While this may be of concern to those lion hunters who want trophy lions or those that want to have lions present all season to "chase", it is not necessarily a concern for the health of the overall population. I hope that rambling made some sense, if not feel free to call and I'll try to explain better - not that I am an expert on the matter.

I dont know if this helps but I thought I would share. I still think they need to cut the quota here back to 15 with a limit on females. But thats just one opinion, I guess I'll just keep chasin bobs.

[The Ole' Guy]

Its so easy for everyone to point the finger at the lions. I agree with you, pegleg, there are too many factors. It is an easy out for the biologists to up lion quotas, easy way to ease the minds of the concerned deer hunters. I wish the houndsmen would govern themselves, as you said. Problem is, we have too many guys that want to kill anything and everything. All we can do is do our part to select harvest and hope the ones we leave don't get killed the next day.

Amen to that,unfortunately the only thing that might change those taking a sub-adult is actually seeing an adult tom in a tree.Won't change the dipsticks,but might change the inexperienced.

[trakntree]

I live in the heart of the Lion country for Southeastern Montana. We have one of the larger quotas, at 25 cats. Five to ten years ago I could go out most any morning and cut a track with in 10 miles of my house sometimes 2 tracks. Over the past few years I have noticed that it is getting harder to find tracks. Most land owners in the area think a good cat is a dead cat. The size of cats being taken in the area are in the 100-130lbs range, comparable to the 150+lbs cats that were taken regularly in the past. As of this season I have yet to cut one good track. Our deer numbers are good our elk numbers are through the roof. I have been in contact with our wardens in the area expressing my concern that cat numbers are down considerably. I thought I would share what he said in return.

You touch on some common concerns from other lion hunters. At one time I was greatly concerned with the number of lions that were being taken in the Ashland area of the Custer National Forest. I have since visited with one of our research biologists in Helena who is a leading expert in mountain lions. The most recent data from studies conducted by Montana FOP and South Dakota State has helped lessen my concerns. Basically the fecundity of lions is greatly dependent on their densities, so if there are many lions in an area then the ability of a female to produce multiple kittens and have them survive to become adult lions is less than if there are fewer lions in an area (to a point - as long as the densities are not so low that females have difficulty finding a male to mate with). Also, because lions travel great distances (often several hundred miles) to disperse (in order to locate an unoccupied territory), if an area is being harvested heavily (referred to as a SINK population, such as the Custer National Forest), it will likely be repopulated on an annual basis as long as their is a SOURCE population (a population where there are more lions being produced than territory available). An indication of this may be a harvest of younger lions in the SINK population year after year. While this may be of concern to those lion hunters who want trophy lions or those that want to have lions present all season to "chase", it is not necessarily a concern for the health of the overall population. I hope that rambling made some sense, if not feel free to call and I'll try to explain better - not that I am an expert on the matter.

I dont know if this helps but I thought I would share. I still think they need to cut the quota here back to 15 with a limit on females. But thats just one opinion, I guess I'll just keep chasin bobs.

Birney- Was that a quote from one of your local FWP bioligists? I think it's interesting Montana FWP spent a bunch of money on a cougar study in western Montana and feel that it constitutes cougar management all over the state. I am not real familiar with your area but I believe Custer NF is an "island range" of mountains? South Dakota has a rough idea on dispersals, but how many are taking residency in the Custer NF?

I have always wondered about region seven, you have a large area, not a whole lot of lion habitat. Sooner or later one area or another area is going to get hammered and who knows how long it will be before you can find a track again?

Sounds like the same o'le crap I have gotten from FWP, they have the answers because they have the education and the guy that is in the woods everyday doesn't know shit!!

[sneekee15]

first thing is first, i am an avid deer hunter and dream about killing monster muley more then anything. but i also love hunting lions. we lion hunters have to admit that lions do their far share of damage to deer herds. especially on those matur bucks that are resting after the rut! but i also know that coyotes pound down as many if not more deer then lions. so i also spend a good amount of time killing those wiley coyotes as well and i think every deer hunter who wants to make a difference should spend some time callin dogs. i do get made when i hear of small females well, any female lion getting killed. i wont shoot one but any big tom is free game in my book.

if deer hunters really want trophy bucks in their state then people need to quit killing 2 points!! if there were more 4 point or better units throughout our states then everyone would benefit in a 2 to 3 years. i guess i can understand a youth hunter pullin the trig on a forky once but that should be the only one. and us mature hunters shouldnt even think about shooting anything less then a 4!

just my thoughts tho. keep on huntin hard boys and have fun chasin!!