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Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:54 am
by liontracker
Easy there, I know this is a sore subject. To say that not one, out of 700 pups was worth a damn, is a stretch. (Like zero culls in the Camerons) I have some pics somewhere of a couple of those pups grown up. No cowhocks on those. A highly respected breeder back east said they had an outstanding mouth. Anyway, it was a very low success rate. Besides, you can't expect a total outcross to match up with just any female a high percentage of the time.
Back on subject: So I guess I heard right, Dr. Whitney was into genetics. Is your friend Carl Caulkins still alive?
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:35 pm
by bignblu
liontracker wrote:Easy there, I know this is a sore subject. To say that not one, out of 700 pups was worth a damn, is a stretch. (Like zero culls in the Camerons) I have some pics somewhere of a couple of those pups grown up. No cowhocks on those. A highly respected breeder back east said they had an outstanding mouth. Anyway, it was a very low success rate. Besides, you can't expect a total outcross to match up with just any female a high percentage of the time.
Back on subject: So I guess I heard right, Dr. Whitney was into genetics. Is your friend Carl Caulkins still alive?
You need to understand that one of the greatest loves of my life is for the old fashioned blue houds, descending from the genes left and entrusted to us by great men such as Elbert Vaughan, Oliver Grant, Jake Sides, Doc Findlay and ever so many more. Early in the 70`s I was recruted to help John Carlisle to set up an assoc to preserve and prepetuate the the genes that had been handed down to us by these and other individuals. The assoc became the Gascon Assoc. (over our objection but demanded by Mel Farber ) We had high hopes qwith sights set high. John Bought 2 Gran Bleus, I was elated, flew to Detroit to see these two yearlings.
They were large, tan trim, great voice, extra long ears and colored perfectly. But thier heads were narrow, but 14 "from nose to occiput, they had narrow, off angulastion pelvis, long of tibia, short of hock abnd severly cow hocked.They were nasty mean.
They produced big, long eared, bawl mouthed honds, beautiful as pups and SOLD LIKE HOT CAKES, John Sold Them fast, dropped out of sight and trhe pollution of the Grant and old fashioned blue gene pool began..
You say"Easy there", Well , I saw distruc tionand dropped out of a thriving assoc, I could have become a sucessfull puppy mill and joined in on, I did not, I resigned. The rest is history that you may doubt. Perhaps you know more than I, but I have spent over 50 years trying to help these noble hounds I love. Of all my questions of those 100 litters, just one man said his would tree a coon in an orange tree if he could see it. Don`t delude yourself
you attended more Gascon events than I looking and prob
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:52 am
by liontracker
Yep, you told me that also. No dellusion here, as I fully realize the end result. What does that have to do with the topic originally started? Bill Green died in 1965, well before these were even imported.
Like I said before, thanks for 50 yrs of service to the Big Blues...
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:14 am
by bignblu
liontracker wrote:Yep, you told me that also. No dellusion here, as I fully realize the end result. What does that have to do with the topic originally started? Bill Green died in 1965, well before these were even imported.
Like I said before, thanks for 50 yrs of service to the Big Blues...
I only got off subject to answer your querstion on Normandy hounds, guess you didn`t like my amswer---but thats O.K. , we all have different paths to follow.
Oh, by the way, Carl Caulkins, a redbone man, died , perhaps 30 years ago.
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:43 am
by lmorgan
I agree that the thread has gotten off subject somewhat, but since the original question about whether or not Vinny Orlando was involved with Bill Green's breeding program has been answered, what's wrong with continuing the discussion? Of course we should try to keep it civil, but what harm can be done by really looking at the history of the old fashioned big blues? Obviously we share a love for those old hounds or we wouldn't be in this particular forum.
I love hound history, so I was enjoying the discussion. As a lover of these old big blues, I really want to know as much about them as I can... good and bad. I've owned some really good ones and I've owned some that weren't worth knocking in the head. I'm not a breeder, but I have been blessed to own a hound or two that I didn't mind feeding.
However, I have been the victim of some of our many faults in the breed... bloat, loose eyes, a lack of tree power, weak hindquarters, and horrible cow hocks.
I've always contributed most of those faults to a shrinking gene pool. On the other hand, it now seems possible that some poor quality imports and even poorer quality crosses may have had more far reaching consequences than I originally thought.
I guess whether or not Bill Green imported French blooded hounds into his breeding program really isn't that important in the long run. If he did, it doesn't seem to have hurt us any. But I could be wrong.
My question to the guys I respect who have been around these hounds so much longer than me is, just how big of an impact did Bill Green and his hounds have on the big blue hound overall? All of my life I've heard of Oliver Grant spoken of with reverence and awe, but I haven't heard much about Bill Green until recently. Why is that?
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:06 am
by bignblu
lmorgan wrote:I agree that the thread has gotten off subject somewhat, but since the original question about whether or not Vinny Orlando was involved with Bill Green's breeding program has been answered, what's wrong with continuing the discussion? Of course we should try to keep it civil, but what harm can be done by really looking at the history of the old fashioned big blues? Obviously we share a love for those old hounds or we wouldn't be in this particular forum.
I love hound history, so I was enjoying the discussion. As a lover of these old big blues, I really want to know as much about them as I can... good and bad. I've owned some really good ones and I've owned some that weren't worth knocking in the head. I'm not a breeder, but I have been blessed to own a hound or two that I didn't mind feeding.
However, I have been the victim of some of our many faults in the breed... bloat, loose eyes, a lack of tree power, weak hindquarters, and horrible cow hocks.
I've always contributed most of those faults to a shrinking gene pool. On the other hand, it now seems possible that some poor quality imports and even poorer quality crosses may have had more far reaching consequences than I originally thought.
I guess whether or not Bill Green imported French blooded hounds into his breeding program really isn't that important in the long run. If he did, it doesn't seem to have hurt us any. But I could be wrong.
My question to the guys I respect who have been around these hounds so much longer than me is, just how big of an impact did Bill Green and his hounds have on the big blue hound overall? All of my life I've heard of Oliver Grant spoken of with reverence and awe, but I haven't heard much about Bill Green until recently. Why is that?
I have heard that Bill was a real hard hunter, lived in an era when there was lots of game and, very importrant, a lot of grand old hounds. Some lee, smokey River, Harry O, Grant etc, etc. I understand he had the funds and time to search out and enjoy some great hound power, the numerous photos seem to support that. But he was only in hounds for about 6 years as I have been told many times, if so, not time enough to develope a line or create the Rep of men Like Grant or Vaughan, even with a promoter like Vinny.
Just an opinion form from what I have heard over the years.
He sure had some grand hounds and put lots of game in trees
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:58 am
by liontracker
bignblu wrote:Bow wrote:mr whitney i dont think was in to hounds?He was a vet i think i dont know any thing about the normandy hounds. bill was born july 1912 died 1965.
You are right, Dr Whitney was a vet in Conn.Never heard of him having hounds.
Never heard of anyone in New England, interested in French hounds . I researched them and was the American Rep for the Gran Bleu/Saint. assoc in Paris. I flew to Detroit to see the first Gran Bleus sent to USA in many decades---They were a huge disappointment and, in my opinion, polluted much of the gene pool of the great bloodlines left by O.O.Grant.
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:08 am
by liontracker
bignblu wrote:Oh, by the way, Carl Caulkins, a redbone man, died , perhaps 30 years ago.
lmorgan wrote:I guess whether or not Bill Green imported French blooded hounds into his breeding program really isn't that important in the long run.
Actually it is the most important part. Because no one has ever reproduced a Green Mountain Hound.
bignblu wrote:He sure had some grand hounds and put lots of game in trees
I think some best quality western Biggamehound.
bignblu wrote:Some lee, smokey River, Harry O, Grant etc, etc. I understand he had the funds and time to search out and enjoy some great hound power
That he did...
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:16 am
by liontracker
bignblu wrote:I only got off subject to answer your querstion on Normandy hounds, guess you didn`t like my amswer---
What answer...?
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:28 am
by liontracker
lmorgan wrote:I guess whether or not Bill Green imported French blooded hounds into his breeding program really isn't that important in the long run. If he did, it doesn't seem to have hurt us any. But I could be wrong.
It could be the glue holding it all together, after a wreck the size of the Grand bleu fiasco?
Who picked out those junk pups?
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:46 am
by Brady Davis
bignblu wrote: But he was only in hounds for about 6 years as I have been told many times, if so, not time enough to develope a line or create the Rep of men Like Grant or Vaughan, even with a promoter like Vinny.
Just an opinion form from what I have heard over the years.
He sure had some grand hounds and put lots of game in trees
...According to Bill's own family he was into hounds "a lot longer than 10 years"...Look at page one of this thread on Bow's response.... He was only written about for 10 years...I beleive Bill Green had an impact that many do not realize.
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:06 am
by Majestic Tree Hound
I trully believe that I Could "Bet the Farm" on what Bill Green Did..
And I believe that Bill was way out their on His own on his Breeding Ideas..
And I Believe this was Bills First Hound !! And with Studies of the GGS and with out doubt this was a 1930 virsion of a GGS
Now in 2 different Articles I have read that Bill bought from the Lee Brothers eather 3 or 4 hounds (1 artical said 3 the other said 4) after He spent a Summer Hunting and learning from them.. This was around 1936 + or - a year..
Bill must have really seen something in the French hound that he liked Alot and Crossed on the Lee Hounds he had bought.. Cuz at the age of 19 Bill was producing Hounds that looked like this .. And without any doubt these hounds have French influence..
These Hounds are about 50-75% French Hounds
These are Very Moderen French after 73 years of Breeding from the Style of French GGS that Bill had..
And with continued Breeding Bill and around 1941-1942 Bill was producing Hounds that looked like this..
And yes Bill did use a Few Big Blues in his Breeding like the Arkansaw Line in the 3rd Gen. in this Ped. Now as far a dating the 3rd gen in this ped. thru Stud ads and such it looks like 1939 + or -..
This Hound is Directly out of Bills Stock "Borders Raider" is Part of the Foundation of Both SR. and SC.
As Far as What the Impact of Bill's French Crossed / Lee Hounds well as you can read in these 2 Ads .. They were quite large ..
Sugar Creek and Smokey River are from Part of Bills Hounds back to Scout/Blue and Ann ..
The Red/Ticked Hounds Were Reg. as English as in "Ginger" Above
She was Reg. after the the Formation of the Bluetick Breed..
And By this Video you can see Bill Loading 2 French Hounds in his Truck that He may have con't to add French Blood thru the years !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeftWsWzig8
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:54 pm
by Bow
no way is that Bills first hound he is to old in that photo.Bill had hounds when he was just a kid.
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:20 pm
by Majestic Tree Hound
Well I'am prob Wrong Their Also "How about First Photo of a Young Bill with a Hound That I have" ... Thanks
Any More Young Bill Photos with Hounds ?? Please !! LOL
Re: Bill Green's breeding advisor
Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:31 pm
by bignblu
liontracker wrote:bignblu wrote:I only got off subject to answer your querstion on Normandy hounds, guess you didn`t like my amswer---
What answer...?
Answer: To my knowledge, no one in new england was interested in french hounds