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Many factors contribute or take away from the answer to this question.
1.how big a piece of the track does this individual get on a regular basis.
answer-if the dog is hunted with 3 or more experienced[catdogs]and is consistantly getting alot of the action out front,are they a star or do the experienced dogs need reavaluated?
2.It varies obviously in areas,so i'll use mine-from truck to tree[locate],hunted with 3 good cathounds-here's the ratio that's safe. A yearling started 20-40 cat TREES.
A coming 2yr.old-mid/late 2yr.old well started[starting to break off catch their own cat-circumstances?]40-70 cat trees.Late 2 yearold to late 3year old 70-150 cat trees this dog,somewhere in this time frame should start coming together as a complete dog,and consistantly get better as time and experience in conditions and circumstances present themselves.
3.There are variables due to individuals plateuing in progress,injuries etc.to put some exceptions in there-to the faster or slower side of things.
4.Most die in the wool Cat hunters I know and have had the pleasure of talking/hunting with,say they've never seen a compete dog under 2-3 year old.

Tim

Mr. Riverbottom,
I'm not really talking about kills though I see your point. Maybe I should have said, "How much experience does it take trailing, running, making pickups, locating, etc?" How often dot they need to be hunted minimum? I know dogs don't have to taste every critter they catch.
Although, I do know cat hunters who live in areas where cats are plentiful and country is plentiful who are caught up on numbers and they kill every one they catch. Most of these guys don't have a dog that will trail hardly at all. Several south TX hunters hunt this way but not all of course. They road the dogs fast waiting to hit a hot track, catch it and go get another one. Two or three a night is pretty common. They'll catch 100-150 a year. I guess they are doing something right but it's not the way I like to do it and doesn't sound like it would fit your program either. Thanks for the reply.

Mr. Pittman,
Good answer, thanks. I start a lot of tracks here that I don't catch because they get onto a place I'm not supposed to be on. Many would be caught otherwise. It's all private here and it makes hunting with dogs very difficult.

Derek

It is an interesting question and discussion. I agree with all the replys on one level or another. Just want to throw a freak dog in the mix for sake of discussion. The most amazing bobcat catching, open trailing, hard/long treeing/locating, bay on the ground most of the time bobcat dog I have ever had the pleasure of knowing intimately, did not have one bobcat dog in her pedigree. She was mix bred, and not by a chance breeding, but by a very intentional and expensive breeding. By her fourth track solo, she caught the bobcat. And from that point forward, you came to expect her to make the catch. This is solo, or with other dogs, but there was never any question who was making the catch.

I bring her up to hitch a ride on the point that the level of a dogs giftedness will determine the number of bobcats it takes to make it a bobcat dog.

If you want to excercise your immagination a bit try this: You can make yourself a list of the traits needed to catch bobcat in your area. Then you can make yourself a list of dogs that might carry one or more of those traits. Then immagine the different configurations of how they might fit together into a breed called "BOBCAT HOUND" in the same way we have the ancient "fox hound" and the "coon hound". Dont be afraid to think outside the box, it is just an excercise. Einstien said "immagination is more important than knowledge." That is nice for me because I have a lot more of the former than of the latter. But it can lead you to some amazing discoveries you might not make without it.

I think in certain strains and lines of dog, this number of bobcats required may be fairly predictable. But then you have the extremes of giftedness or lack of it on either end of the spectrum that will not fit that formula. I dont have the patience, but I know of dogs in larger pack situations that never really could do it until three years old or so and had been under literally hundreds of bobcats. This was mostly because they had to learn how to locate and tree. They were smart enough to learn it, but did not have the instinct or gift for it. But they became known as fur sure bobcat dogs.

I think that is one reason everyone agrees that intellegence is the primary trait. Our dogs have to learn to hunt bobcat, because we are using coon hounds and fox hounds to catch them with. We might not really have bobcat dogs whose every instinct will faithfully direct them on a bobcat hunt, in the same way a coon hound's instincts direct him so perfectly on a coon hunt. (?)

So, the number of cats or amount of experience needed depends on (among other factors) the amount of natural ability (brains included) the dog has to begin with. I would say that's why, to better your odds of ending up with a good cat dog, you would want to start with a pup that was bred with catching bobcat in mind from lines that have produced cat dogs in the past. Not to say you can't get the occasional good bobcat dog from other lines, just not as likely or as consistently.
Derek

Derek, you are a very clear methodical thinker. I am not worried about you in the least.
Carry on my brother. You have that main ingredient to all good bobcat dogs and bobcat hunters.

This is great . I love reading your stuff David. I just sat down and made a list of dogs i have had i the last 10 years. Not counting anything under 1 yr old ive had 26 dogs.i can say that 17 could catch a cat by there self and most did. I could have kept them and caught cats with these dogs and called them cat dogs but there was somthing i didnt like about them. They were not going to be the best cat dog in the world. Im very picky because ive seen some real cat dogs and owned some 10 yrs ago. The female i have right know has alot of what i like but she is not going to be perfect. I am still trying and i will try till the day i die to make the perfect cat dog. I like david know it will not be a long eared hound dog. athletic ability, brains, desire . Just because a dog can catch a cat dosnt meen they are at my standard a cat dog. I started quarter back in high school that dosnt make me joe montana. If i go hunting with someone and both of our dogs catch cats, but my dog trees the cat 15 min before his dog gets to the tree who is the cat dog. Maybe both but not to me . i can appreciate any dog that can catch a cat but i want them to do it in style consistantly. jmo

jc

Thanks David.

David,

If I wasn't Happily Married (My wife reminds me of this every time I walk out the door) I would sure want to meet and maybe marry your twin Hannah as she ought to have as much Hound Sense as you, (Sibs in the Hound World being similar).

Seriously, as always you bring thought and quality input to a Topic!

Derek, thanks for this Topic!

You, JC, Tim and Riverbottom have all contributed good STUFF!

As with all things Bobcat though, there will be no definitive answer as the Country Hunted, Regulations, Style of the Hunter, and Type of Hound Hunted are all going to have an impact on what it takes to make a “CATDOG”.

CJC

Wow! After reading this stuff I have decided that I am very lucky to catch even 1 fox or cat. I did not realize it was this difficult to catch cats with dogs. I sure hope I can get a catdog one day.

JC Im interested in where you are getting these dogs that are making cat dogs lets get together and run one of them tough ones i would like to wach there overall ability always up for a new strain of dogs

I know that there are diferant ways of running bobcats all over the country and you have to do what works for you,but I am just throwing this out there.To call a dog a real catdog would that dog have to catch cats by themselves and not as part of a pack of hounds?I guess what I am asking is can you take one dog out of these packs and catch cats?

thats what im talking about. a do it all cat dog.

jc

Spruce Mountain,

A very good question is posed here!

This is going to be DAMN hard for some of the readers to get their head around but here goes my thoughts.

This has been discussed many times on here and I am sure standing around the Truck while the Hounds are working a Cold Track.

Where we and Folks like Poon hunt it will be very hard for any open mouth Hound to "Regularly" catch a Bobcat alone. In Florida, with their sandy roads (very much like your Snow up north) you can probably drive looking at and for Bobcat Tracks...when you find a fresh one, then find where the Cat has left the road going into a block...with the right Closed or Tight Mouth Dog, you might be successful occasionally!

Now then, Folks here in the Southeastern US do have some very "Special" Hounds come along every once in a while. Who, if moved to the North or West and given time to acclimate would Catch (really what you all are talking about is Treeing) a Bobcat on their own. Poon on here probably has one, I know of one in GA, Glen Rybard has one and I am sure that there are several in Texas. But these Hounds AIN'T going to do it alone here except as an accident!

But here is the "Fly in the Buttermilk" and we invite anyone to come show us different (I will pay your expenses getting here and going home, if you are successful, and feed you and your Hound well while you are here, and put you in GOOD Cat country). Show us ONE Hound that will FIND, STRIKE, TRAIL, JUMP, RUN, then BAY or TREE a Bobcat in the Country that We hunt. We won't just go one night, I will block out a week, that is seven days and or nights and tell you when the Bobcat rut is on which is when the Cat are stirring more.

Conversation and sending these electronic mails are Cheap, I am sure someone out there will back up this claim of the SUPER HOUND! Several Members on here have come to see us, I do not think any have been starved to death or overly mistreated so, someone please bring that SUPER HOUND here for Dad to see before he is gone!

I bet they turn out to be like UFO's, Heard about lots, but rarely SEEN!

Folks, this is said time and time again "You have to adjust your style and Hounds to the Country that you Hunt". Write this on the palm of your hand! What works here won’t work as well in MT or Maine or even Texas and vice versa.

Next, and this is the Biggee, the Competition should never be between the Hounds or other Hunters but between the Hound and the Game being pursued! If more than one hound is used, they should complement each other.

No matter the quarry, finishing the track, efficiently and with style and panache should be the goal of the Hound and Hunter!

To quote Mr. John, “I’ll hush now”!

CJC

I'm not saying that my area is the toughest to catch cats as am sure it's not but I have raised two dogs to 4 years old that not only couldn't catch cats here but couldn't even keep up with my pack of dogs. Both dogs went to other parts of the country and began catching cats immediately. They weren't the best cat dogs but could catch a cat where they went and do it alone. I don't know that they were not as good as the dogs I had but they sure weren't the right kind of dog for where I hunt. I'm hunting 6 dogs. Seems cat hunting in one area can be so different than cat hunting in another area that you might as well call it by a different name. Too many variables change. It's not apples to apples.
Derek

I guess what I am realy wondering is if these different ways we have of running Bobcats,namely running a pack verses running one or two dogs won't work everywhere or that its just the way it has always been done.Ever scince I can remember all that I have heard is that when running bobcats 2 dogs is sometimes to many,but I don't honestly know anybody that has ever tried to run a large pack of hounds on cats in our area.I'm not trying to chalenge any body or anthing like that but from what I have been brought up to believe your pack couldn't catch cats up hear either,but like I said I don't know that because as far as I know it has never been tried.I guess from what you have said that single dogs down there have been tried and don't work.And by caught I mean just what you mean,treed or bayed up.Alot of our cats won't tree either.I don't mean just shooting it running ahead of the dogs.I think that it all boils down to what I said before if you are catching cats and most other guys are running cats then you have a catdog.No matter where you live.And numbers shouldn't matter as much as percentages.