BigGameHoundsmen.com

I'm just talking about myself, but if I find a track I put dogs on it and follow it till they either can't move it any more or we catch it. I'm hunting for no other reason than making better dogs and following along and learning the best I can. No rocket science, just hunting.

A lot of good advice here. I would say many of the early Native Americans were every bit as good a trackers as indigenous tribesman from other parts of the world. In fact it is part of many of their cultures and you will find many of them involved in very eleite tracking squads today dealing with illegal activities.

Much of this is being in tune with your surroundings. A guy that has grown up in the project in a major city can spot tell tale signs, tracks and hidden hazards that a country boy would blunder right thru.

I find the more time I spend concurrently in the woods the sharper my intuitions and sign cutting become. As you let the baggage of the everyday world slip off and take on the predator role.


Aging tracks is an interesting hobby but many more things than age must be considered when you bring your canine friend into the mix. He doesn't know or care how old that trail is. If he can detect it he then is faced with all the other problems that scent encounters with elements, time, enzymes in certain soils, rock formations and vegitation, ultra vilolet rays and moisture. It is a very complexed science if you really take it that far.

As I said tracking can be a very interesting hobby, but I much prefer trailing to tracking, and I try to let the dogs do the bulk of that.

African,

I agree that one has to have a fair knowledge of the animals they are after as well as good tracking skills, to get the most out of the hounds they have, but a person needs to be honest with themselves on the ability of their trail hounds. Some would say that their hounds could run a five day old track on bare ground catch up and tree it. Now I have some great dogs as well as I have hunted with some out standing dry ground hounds and have never seen this, Have I seen them trail some damn tough tracks and put an end to them, Yes. Would I say that they started a five day old track and ran that animal down, hell no. The topic was ageing a track and I feel I was very clear on how I age mine, I heard on this form once about some hounds that started a fifteen day old lion track, True or not who would want too and if the nose power of those hounds are that great then man hunting is what they should be doing, as there are plenty of abducted children in this country every day that could use such a hound to recover them, with nose power like that you could strap them to the hood of your car and travel down the highway a sixty miles an hour with them striking the whole way. I think the assertion that ones hounds have that type of ability is ridicules and I can honestly say that if the track I am trailing is older than 36 hours then the odds of me catching up to that animal, go way down. Can my hound’s strike lion scent off an old scratch, yes. Would I tell someone from that, that my hounds could trail a track that was ten to fifteen days old, no. From the information some lay out on this site I would have to conclude that the hounds I have are medium to hot nosed that’s if I believe all that is being said. Tracking wildlife takes a couple of things. One, being out there every day. Two, knowing the animals forward and backward from what they eat to where they drink and the topography they live in. Those two basic things have served me well. I can’t catch a ten day old track with my hounds so I sure don’t need too know what one looks like and if they started one I would pull them off and find a fresher end of that track. Time and distance equals success or failure. So age a track with your eyes then put them hounds down you will either say that was fresher than I thought or you will say I thought that track to be better than that.

sourdough

[quote="sourdough" I can’t catch a ten day old track with my hounds so I sure don’t need too know what one looks like and if they started one I would pull them off and find a fresher end of that track. Time and distance equals success or failure. So age a track with your eyes then put them hounds down you will either say that was fresher than I thought or you will say I thought that track to be better than that.

I agree.
As Mike pointed out there is more to scent than age.
A good track on the south side of a hill can turn quickly into a bad track on the north slope.

In fact it has been noted by some houndsmen with more diverse experience than myself that environments with more even climatic conditions, like arid deserts, preserve scent better than environments with varied changes like tropical coastal forests.

Gavin,

I concur many low altitude Sonoran type deserets where temperature variation do not swing wildly from day to night seem to maintain a track a bit longer. Especially if there is sufficient rock or vegitation to help hold the scent. More porous rocks and thicker brush and grass help in this regard. Sand does not hold scent well at all neither does clay based soils. Rock that is porous and rough like sandstone holds scent very well but hard gravel type rocks hold very little scent. Decomposed granite is somehwere in the middle. High deserts with wildly changing temperatures say near freezing at night and 70-80 degres in the day are horrible at best. Throw in a lot of sand and clay based soils and it is pretty tuff. I have had some of my dogs here in the high desert that I thought were mediocre at best on a colder lion trail look pretty dang good down in the lower desert during the peak dry ground trailing seasosn of Dec. thru April.

Coastal Florida has some of the hardest trailing conditions known. Bear hunters even have a terrible time because they have to deal with so much sand and humidity thrown in. Fresh tracks in coastal rainforest may be smoking and good but let more rain, fog, dew settle and heat vapors rise and you will be standing around sucking your thumb wondering which way the critter went.

Each area has it's own particular traits and I guess that is our cross to bare if we live there. We work on the dogs, cross our fingers and hope for the best.

Great information comes from those willing to share their insight without concern of someone becoming better than them. Great knowledge is gained by those that listen and apply it. Sourdough 4/28/2010

I hope that others weigh in on this topic. As I respect African, Perhaps Roy sparks or Brent Sinclair as I do feel that those that have had the African Bushmen as trackers are the only ones that know their abilities and potential. I have a question this is Hypothetical at best, if an African Bushmen was brought to North America could they perform as well as they do in their back yard? I believe that ageing of tracks is only relevant to the condition one has too perform in as mentioned several times on this board in other topics and the debate will roll on, as many are unable to concede that what happens in the north does not happen in the south as well as the east or west. Mike brought up something that I believe to be the truest thing when it comes to trailing and that is stable conditions they are the best that a hound and a houndsmen can hope for. Rapid temperature changes, weather, humidity, all can ruin the best track in the matter of minutes, and a track made during these conditions one may never start. That is universal to every houndsmen and hound on this planet. A person from western Washington or the Willamette valley of Oregon may only see a track once in a blue moon so how does it apply to them I have seen tracks in some areas I hunt that look the same for months until the rain or wind finally take their toll on them. So I again say I have to trust the abilities of my hounds and that’s all you and I can do.


sourdough

I would have thought the tracks down by the kennel were self explanitory...what was I thinking? After all this is still the "infamous BGH site" - I forgot. Those tracks are made in the Pinion/Juniper, in the shade and the sun and only are a reference for when I am hunting similar terrain. The condition of a track laid in that environment is very fickle at best, depending on a multitude of things that only time and distance can explain.

Not being the type, to just simply let my dogs be the judge of what tracks they want to run or not, I need to more accurately know how old a track is before "WE" decide to work it. Ever noticed how some dogs become hotter nosed in their preference to run a track? Without knowing how old a track is, how do you call BS on that type of behavior?

Ever had a super Tom that only rarely visits an area? Ever cut a 3-4 day old track of his and the only thing you can do, is just stand there and say "maybe some day I'll cut it fresher". Why not push that track all day and get back on it the next day and jump him off a kill and tree him? I would rather do that one time, then run 10 tracks that my dogs decided they wanted to run.

Oh yeh and the 15 day old track was made in a foot of fresh snow. The snow slowly melted away over that time and the hounds were opicking up the residual scent left in the grass and dirt after the snow melted. They were trailing the right direction, but would have had a better chance catching it if they had been running it backwards. It was just an experiment.

I guess my point is this, and African touched on it: How can you expect to push your hounds to the limit of their nose, if you yourself, cannot accurately age the tracks you are asking them to trail?

Coyote, I asked a question from those being professional guides from Africa! Unless you are an African guide I surely don’t need your opinion, I know of the Bushmen’s abilities and admire the stories I have heard, not only from books, but from eye witness account from family that have the means to have actually been there! I can’t see why you have your panties in a wad. African was not insulted by what I said, nor was what I said meant to be insulting! I ask a question plan and simple if you can’t look past your nose then I am sorry.

Liontracker, why with all your expertise, do you NEED to make tracks next to your kennel? I know, from what you said it’s only for a reference and that inspired me. So, I went out there tonight when feeding my inferior hounds and placed a single foot print beside their kennel, I not only marked down the date, but the time, barometer, wind speed, dew point, temperature, moon faze, humidity, terrain, habitat type, and soil type, as I am sure from all the knowledge I have of North American predators I have caught it was only a guess at best! Now that I have been educated by the true professional, I should be able to up the numbers of easy lions by ten fold. WE take the tracks as WE get them, fast or slow and WE enjoy every one of them. I for one am proud of these American bred hounds I hunt, put together by men that actually hunt lion to catch them, not experiment with running them. I still can’t figure out how one can run a 15 day old track in Fresh snow, but after all I am an amateur. Oh I have to complete the sentence they were picking up residues off the grass after the snow melted and was gone. LMAO But if you say they can do it then I believe it. The men I know have a half dozen of your hounds in their packs getting it done! I would rather have my hounds on ten lions then one that was ten days old! Call me old fashion or stupid I don’t care. The minute I see your giant lions you have caught I will change my thought process. From the age analysis on lions in your state it sounds like you have already caught them big boys? Maybe you can take those hounds down to southern Arizona or New Mexico and enlist your talents in the borderlands project it sounds like they need a specialist that could help then quantify the true number of transient Jaguar. A person can be a pro every day on this site to someone who does not know better. So don’t get all bent out of shape when some one calls you on it! People don’t comment on here because of the brow beating they might get from some joker that may only get their hounds out seasonal at best so you can call this the infamous BGH sight if you want. I base my comments on the life time of hunting as well as from those men that really live this style of hunting each and every one of them would just laugh at the statements you made about curtain things. I do feel that you do bring some knowledge to this site when you’re not trying to prop up those French hounds you have as the silver bullet because there are still a few men out there breeding for results as their lives depend on it the old dry ground breeding is still around. If you make a statement about something on this sight then you had better be able to back up the claim or you will be called out by someone that does have more knowledge than the average guy, I for one get sick of all the BS put out on this site but I have to say that there is some good stuff on here too. Just keeping it real.

Sourdough

I found the easiest way to age a track is to know when it's made...
Thats a lot easier if you spend a lot of time hunting in the same area...

I get to hunt about half as much as I'd like, but even when I'm not hunting I'll take the dogs and road them, or just go drive around and look around where I'm going to be hunting. Go drive around late in the afternoon the day before, let the dogs ride in the box. If they strike get out and look around. See some tracks, take a look at em. Then tomorrow you'll know how long it's been there, and you'll have a good idea of when the newer ones were made. Heck, some of the tracks you can drive by and see all season. It's easy to know when something is new or old when you go through there everyday.

What I personally do is go drive around the area I'm going to be hunting at about 5-6 pm the day before. Then when ya get up there at about 6 the next morning, ya throw the dogs up. 95% of the time they are gonna age the tracks for you. When they strike I personally don't even look. There are times they will hit tracks you seen the night before, and you know its older, and you can guage it by when you were there. And there are times they hit and there are new tracks made overnight. Most of the time there is no track, so it's a crap shoot

sourdough wrote:Liontracker, why with all your expertise, do you NEED to make tracks next to your kennel?

Because in the later part of our season, in the places that I hunt, the condition of a track changes at an extremely varied rate, even one night compaired to the very next night. I have seen tracks that looked to be 4-5 days old, that were only 2 days old. Without knowing what happened to those tracks overnight, I never would have known the difference.

sourdough wrote:I still can’t figure out how one can run a 15 day old track in Fresh snow, but after all I am an amateur. Oh I have to complete the sentence they were picking up residues off the grass after the snow melted and was gone. LMAO

A 15 day old track in fresh snow-surely your not serious and can read better than that? I have had people with me on several occasions watch these dogs trail on scent like that. One guy was born and raised here and has run with at least a dozen different local packs. When he saw mine trail on one of those old tracks, he just stood there, all he could say for 10 minutes was "did you see that...are you seeing what I am seeing?" To a man, each has said that "even though I know you, if I had not seen it with my own eyes, I would have had to call you a liar." So why should you be any different? I will have to admit, that until I posted on here, I did not know it was any different than any other hounds. The reason being, that mine have always been able to do this. I simply thought they were just the higher end of average.

sourdough wrote:The minute I see your giant lions you have caught I will change my thought process. From the age analysis on lions in your state it sounds like you have already caught them big boys?

I have only ever killed one lion. Yes it was a Booner. I do not need to see how many lions I can kill to impress myself or anyone else for that matter. I am way past that phase...been there, done that on elk and deer...I am into the highest quality of dogwork that I can produce, that's all. As for the Colorado tooth age analysis, I posted that because I do not believe those ages are correct and the DOW does not have an accurate method of determining age of lions and that info will cause us problems in the long run, due to people thinking we have shot out all the older age class tom's. I leave the Killing to other people and a lot of the big toms I let walk, have their pics gracing these pages.

sourdough wrote:I base my comments on the life time of hunting as well as from those men that really live this style of hunting each and every one of them would just laugh at the statements you made about curtain things.

I do so as well. I used to feel the same way. What I found over the years, is that most of the oldtimers were very set in their ways and very closed minded when it came to new ideas. When they laughed or expressed disbelief, I realised that I had come onto something they never had. It used to bother me, but not anymore, as I do this for myself, and myself only.

sourdough wrote:I do feel that you do bring some knowledge to this site when you’re not trying to prop up those French hounds you have as the silver bullet because there are still a few men out there breeding for results as their lives depend on it the old dry ground breeding is still around.

My French hounds are no silver bullet, as there is no such thing. They do however bring some things to the plate that are lacking or non-existant in the vast majority of hounds today. Even though my life does not depend on it, I am producing results that are causing disbelief, and those results are progressing, so I must be heading in the direction I intended.

Here is another "tracking experiment" to ponder...

I cut a track on the edge of the Fir/Aspen. It headed through the aspen on hard crusted snow. It was at least 3 days old and melted out and in most places I had to get down against the snow to even see it. From the size of the track back in the firs, I really wanted to see this tom in a tree. So we slowly followed it south, down hill and in the sun most of the morning. Eventually we ran out of snow and hit the oakbrush. The temp had hit about 50 degrees by then. The dogs slowed way down but were still making time so we kept at it. At mid afternoon the dogs jumped it from a layup on a north face under an overhang and 100 yds later it was treed. This was in March and it doesn't get much tougher than those old tracks in the hot sunbaked oakbrush leaves.
The following season he got hung on a local guys wall.

sourdough wrote: I do feel that you do bring some knowledge to this site when you’re not trying to prop up those French hounds you have as the silver bullet because there are still a few men out there breeding for results as their lives depend on it the old dry ground breeding is still around.
Sourdough

Sourdough...They are not the silver bullet...They are the white bullet (with some black and a little tan trim) Silver bullets are for enjoying in a mug or a bottle

Liontracker Your toms must not travel very far if you can cold trail down a hard track thats at least 3 days old for 8 or so hours and still catch up to him.

sourdough wrote:Coyote, I asked a question from those being professional guides from Africa! Unless you are an African guide I surely don’t need your opinion

Just where the hell did I give my opinion? You asked a question that had already been answered and I simply highlighted that. Never did I accuse anyone of insulting anybody else.