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Ike to clarify: I have nothing against the good honest ethical outfitter. Matter of fact those that are smart and in it for the long run usually do what they can to make sure next year there will be some lions to chase.I do not like the female killing at all becasue it is short sighted especially if you do it for personal ego, or money. I have had to kill female lions. Yes more than just a couple but as we know female lions can become stock killers and urban terrorists just like tom lions. I don't like it and I try to reason with which ever group I am dealing with to dart, relocate and such. Although we know such relocations are seldom successful. the lion usually comes back or is dumped in alien territry and is killed or starved out till it goes to some other livestock area and kills. about all you do is relocate the problem but I try.

No all I was really fired up about was the unethical money hunting. Tree a lion hold it go call around till you can get somebody to run out there and make the boat or RV payment for you.Maybe because in my area it is so prevalant as our 2009-10 season proved. these types of pay as you go guides killed out the female quota and shut the sport season down 2 months before it was actually to end. I am lucky because I have private holding as well as reservation land to continue to hunt my dogs, but for a lot of sport hunter who does not it makes owning hounds for 4 or 5 weekend hunting excursions in the year really not worth it.

Mike Leonard wrote:Ike to clarify: No all I was really fired up about was the unethical money hunting. Tree a lion hold it go call around till you can get somebody to run out there and make the boat or RV payment for you.Maybe because in my area it is so prevalant as our 2009-10 season proved. these types of pay as you go guides killed out the female quota and shut the sport season down 2 months before it was actually to end. I am lucky because I have private holding as well as reservation land to continue to hunt my dogs, but for a lot of sport hunter who does not it makes owning hounds for 4 or 5 weekend hunting excursions in the year really not worth it.

Cool! And I don't know who would support that type of hunting either Mike, as it is not legal where I live and can land a guy with third degree felony charges......

ike

Yah Ike that's right, and now that UT has an outfitters association I hope something happens as I have turned in scab ass wannabee guides and nothing has been done. The one officer told me they didn't have the money to have a group of officers out putting in all that time and effort to pin down these guys. REALLY, that's their answer. Wow, that tells me there's no reason to even have a fish cop around. Of course I've heard of people reporting on poached elk and nothing was done. Not even for the precious elk in this state!

Cold Track,

I did speak with DWR the other day after an outfitter I know wondered about who was going to enforce the new guide law on the books. Although I haven't kept up with budget cuts in these times for the fish and game, other agencies have been cut while the work load continues to increase. I'll have to assume the fish and game faces the same challenges as other state agencies with limited budget monies.

The fish and game has had an increased work load doing background checks on over three hundred guides and outfitters applying for a license. The fish and game will also assist DOPL' s investigators in their work to check out complaints but we as hunter/guides should not expect them to have much impact on the "he's just my buddy" and "there isn't any money changing hands" that will continue to go on across the country. DWR hasn't received any new monies for the increased workload, and you are correct as DOPL doesn't have very many people to respond, work and address public needs. DWR has in the past, and will continue to rely to some degree on help from the public to police our ranks, as they will never have the budget to hire the man power needed to watch or investigate everybody.

I will say that every Conservation Officer I know takes their jobs seriously, and will not turn their backs on game offenses if they have evidence that will hold up in court. Some of these guys and gals work off the clock, as have other state employees, cause the state limits their hours. I remember the Natural Resource Director telling us fifteen years ago how state employees are NOT TO work off the clock, yet most have never received one single hour of overtime in their career. My recommendation is work with those guys if you are interested, help be their eyes and ears, don't send them on wild goose chases and the public will know the fish and game have allies.

Personally, I have dropped whatever I'm doing day or night and assisted the fish and game any and every time they have ever called. One CO told me once, if you care about your sport you'll take an active roll in policing it.............

ike

10-4 Ike!

Ike wrote: I will say that every Conservation Officer I know takes their jobs seriously, and will not turn their backs on game offenses if they have evidence that will hold up in court. Some of these guys and gals work off the clock, as have other state employees, cause the state limits their hours. I remember the Natural Resource Director telling us fifteen years ago how state employees are NOT TO work off the clock, yet most have never received one single hour of overtime in their career.

ike

You must have different guys working for the "state" than we do. I know for sure they ain't putting any extra hours at a "gratis" charge. It's hard enough for them to get stuff done when they are on the clock.

If you haven't noticed many Gov agencies are very good at making more meaningless work tasks, so they can't possibly get them all done. It's a pretty good work tactic for job security.

With that said, I wouldn't want to be a Conservation Officer. It's a thankless job, where most don't like you because of the chance you'll write them a ticket. While I agree it is neccesary, the attitude an officer has will go a LONG way towards what people think of them. In my experience with the exception of one local officer, that attitude has very bad in WI. In ND, each one we've talked to was great. Just my opinion.

As for guides, I am torn on the subject. Good guides are great for our outdoor sports and work their butt off for not a whole lot of money. The bad ones give everyone a black eye. If the game populations can support it, they should be able to do it. Just don't expect anyone to give them wide-open unpressured hunting because they've got a guy with who's paying. I'm not fond of when some "dude" comes in a gets to whack a trophy animal because he's got a wad full of cash. Especially if that animal is on public land that a normal guy has a whack at. Now if that "dude" wants to come up and put in the work, then by all means he's put in his time and deserves it. Note this attitude doesn't just apply to some guy paying, but anyone who just comes up with a tag. It could be the friend, or friend of a friend type of deal. It just doesn't sit well with me, but it's neccesary if a guy wants to hunt in WI. I'm sure you guys out west have to deal with it a lot more. We just have to put up with it for bears and cats.

We had a situation once where a lion was treed and knew the hunter was not even in the unit.The fish cops were called and he said" we have no one in the area " and "we have other cases we are working on so sorry we cant help". Budget cuts have a way of making things look not important but really what can they do? Lets give them a hand when we can!!!

Tiny, looks like you gave them a hand..........

NM has a law that the hunter license must be purchased 48 hrs before hunting to curtail some of " on call " kind of hunts. Its helped but hasnt stopped it all.

On the flip side a good friend of mine who is an outfitter treed 3 legal females with a client this past year. The outfitter would not let the hunter shoot one even though they were all legal. The hunter was rewarded by harvesting a nice tom later in the hunt.

There are good ones and bad in all profession! We should always police our own

I agree but these "professionals" should be wise enough to help themselves out and drag that client up the mountain or out of bed beforethey start to unload hounds and thats the bottom line. If the hunter can't make it today then take the day off as a paid holiday for you and the hounds... I won't trail a lion for a rancher on their tag unless they're riding along. and it's sad and surprising to see how many think that train of thought is backwards. these people aren't so busy most of the time to make sure they stop loosing calves. this also fosters a misunderstanding of the amount of work put into catching a specific cat. leading to our services being devalued so if your in it for money it's a odd way to handle it. same with wildlife how often have you seen their attitude change once they had to be succesful in getting it done? hence govt. hunters and bounties and state damage programs.

[quote="Big Mike" We should always police our own[/quote]
Amen

I quit taking on call hunters a few years back as I felt they really did not appreciate the work that goes in. Since then the clients no what to expect when they show up and they seem like real hunters. On the phone you tell them its a tom only hunt and they better be prepared to snowmobile, hike, and snowshoe, because I expect them to put in the same effort as I do. If they don't want to do this call another outfitter as there are many chumps looking for the on call type hunter and they will let you sit in the truck all day if you like. Since doing this I have have doubled my prices and have had a better class of hunters.

The only way you can complain is if a law is being broken. To say all these noble weekenders only kill mature toms is hogwash. Most guys start out killing a few females and pretty soon every shirtail relative and guy they met at the flea market has a lion hangin' on a nail. I did a cat for a guy in wheel chair last year the outfitter packed him on his back to the tree, it was a female. Are going to tell me because some IED blew this guys legs off and he could not follow the dogs step for step he somehow did not desrve to kill the cat?. If the law is broken, report it! If you can't share then get your law changed, but belly aching about some greedy outfitter does nobody any good.

Is it illegal in every state, to pursue and tree, then call the client in to the tree?

Because I thought it was?