Thanks.
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:01 pm
Thanks david. I appreciate your writing and plan on doing some research and reading.
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Dec. "FUR FISH GAME"
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:20 am
david, you gota love those Leopard spoted dogs
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:16 am
I still respect you David but you are like Hilary Clinton you just say a whole lot of nothing and you make it sound real nice.
Read up on the Lurcher, you need to ,they are crossing Sight hounds with Terriers, that is making up the majority or the breed.
This is the last I will post on this post. But David you are still invited to come hunt with me And you too Nolte. 
But not you Doogie , you got to start catching something with those spotted dogs first before you go with me. 
Read up on the Lurcher, you need to ,they are crossing Sight hounds with Terriers, that is making up the majority or the breed.
This is the last I will post on this post. But David you are still invited to come hunt with me
And you too Nolte. But not you Doogie , you got to start catching something with those spotted dogs first before you go with me. Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:28 am
You missed his point.Mr.pacojack wrote:I still respect you David but you are like Hilary Clinton you just say a whole lot of nothing and you make it sound real nice.
Read up on the Lurcher, you need to ,they are crossing Sight hounds with Terriers, that is making up the majority or the breed.
This is the last I will post on this post. But David you are still invited to come hunt with me
Anyhow. The name Schuk look it up in Records of big game
it's near the front. He is running straight Border collies.LOL.Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:41 am
David,I am just a bearhunter that chases cats.I have always enjoyed your post and find them imformative.I have only bobcat hunted in Wisconsin and my success is normally dependent on the quality of snow that we have.I have hunted with a few dogs that I considered good cat dogs,but not great.All of my experience has been with hounds.I have been out west after the big cats and found the challenge of hunting them to be disapointing.Have you ever hunted bobs on dry ground?How do you think a dry ground bobcat dog would do in this area?I would think that the terrain in the northeast would be similar to what it is here.
Devin,I believe that you have a good strain of dogs and are quite confident in their abilities.Unless you have ran them on bobcats in WI or Mn you really don't know how well they would do.I think that you would have success but it would be a learning experience for you and your dogs.I think that I have a good pack of bear dogs but I don't know how good they would do If I was bear hunting in the mountains of Utah instead of the swamps we have here.Hell,there is probably bear hunters around here that would think my dogs are culls.Good thing I am the only one that needs to be happy with them.I am not trying to offend anyone, just my opinion.
Nolte,how did you guys do on the bobs this year?I like your attitude on hunting and dogs.Breed is not important and long as they do the job.I prefer walkers. Most of my look dogs like walkers but have a little bit of everything in them.What area of the state are you located in?
Devin,I believe that you have a good strain of dogs and are quite confident in their abilities.Unless you have ran them on bobcats in WI or Mn you really don't know how well they would do.I think that you would have success but it would be a learning experience for you and your dogs.I think that I have a good pack of bear dogs but I don't know how good they would do If I was bear hunting in the mountains of Utah instead of the swamps we have here.Hell,there is probably bear hunters around here that would think my dogs are culls.Good thing I am the only one that needs to be happy with them.I am not trying to offend anyone, just my opinion.
Nolte,how did you guys do on the bobs this year?I like your attitude on hunting and dogs.Breed is not important and long as they do the job.I prefer walkers. Most of my look dogs like walkers but have a little bit of everything in them.What area of the state are you located in?
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:54 pm
Read up on the Lurcher, you need to ,they are crossing Sight hounds with Terriers, that is making up the majority or the breed.
Mr Pacojack, It's interesting how you can read something and pretty much ignore what it said and then make my point for me. "They are crossing sight hounds with terriers". Ok, I did not write that so you dont have to ignore it. You wrote it. Now read your own post and you will have my point.
An Oklahoma bobcat dog whose fame has reached Minnesota is 1/2 walker, 1/2 fox terrier. There is a Minnesota bobcat hunter who runs pure bred walkers and hunts more than any other Minnesota bobcat hunter that I know of. He has hunted with the dog on several occasions and says it is the best he has ever hunted with. I went and hunted with the dog also.
Houndhead, Western Oregon rarely gets snow, and when it does it does not stay long. I dont know if you would call it dry ground though unless you are talking mid summer, as it rains alot there.
You could take your winter bobcat dogs and run them in the other seasons in Wisconsin and MN if the law would allow. Your dogs will be very happy to do that. There are a few problems to over come though.
1)Finding a track. This can be done though and actually, in some ways seems easier than in the winter. Never did it intentionally, but Minnesota used to have a 12 month coon season, and it would happen by accident while coon hunting.
2) your cat races will be messed up by coon unless you break your dogs off coon.
3) your cat races will be messed up by bear unless you break your dogs off bear.
4) You will need to hunt in your swimming suit if the Wisconsin side is like the minnesota side. It is the swamp gateway to hell. I am so surprised that it freezes over at all in the winter since it is perched just over hell waiting to suck you down. If you ever heard the term "when hell freezes over" you know they are talking about Wisconsin and Minnesota every winter. I am homesick for heaven. Have been ever since I got here.
5) If you are talking summer, your dogs used to running in snow will have trouble with the track through the dry areas, and then go good on it throught the wet areas. It is almost impossible to catch anything when the dogs have to constantly re-adjust their nose like that. They cant seem to do it. But it is still very good practice for them.
If you are thinking of importing a cat dog from another region, I can only say that this has never worked for me. You might be right about the Northeast though. I dont even want to say this because it seems unbeleivable, but the streight bobcat dogs I have brought here from other places wont even run these cats. They look at me like "are you crazy! You are trying to set me up on a trash race?" I kid you not. And if they ever do get to running them it is half hearted. And on the other side, the dogs are completely trustworthy on their home turf, bring em here and you gotta deer break em. It all sucks. Even if I was hunting, I would not try importing a dog from another region again. I would buy pups from any region and try them, but not broke dogs. It's probably all that sulfur smell from hell that messes them up.
I would be curious to hear from you if you try one from the Northeast. I think they may be the same great lakes cat that we have, and like you said, there are similarities in climate and topograghy.
I am kind of with you on the lion hunting. I guess it is fun seeing a lion up close and personal and I love the mountains and would go there any time I could though. I think my dogs would have sucked big time on desert lion without snow, but snow hunting a fresh lion track is probably less challenging for the dogs than coon hunting. They sure like it though.
Mr Pacojack, It's interesting how you can read something and pretty much ignore what it said and then make my point for me. "They are crossing sight hounds with terriers". Ok, I did not write that so you dont have to ignore it. You wrote it. Now read your own post and you will have my point.
An Oklahoma bobcat dog whose fame has reached Minnesota is 1/2 walker, 1/2 fox terrier. There is a Minnesota bobcat hunter who runs pure bred walkers and hunts more than any other Minnesota bobcat hunter that I know of. He has hunted with the dog on several occasions and says it is the best he has ever hunted with. I went and hunted with the dog also.
Houndhead, Western Oregon rarely gets snow, and when it does it does not stay long. I dont know if you would call it dry ground though unless you are talking mid summer, as it rains alot there.
You could take your winter bobcat dogs and run them in the other seasons in Wisconsin and MN if the law would allow. Your dogs will be very happy to do that. There are a few problems to over come though.
1)Finding a track. This can be done though and actually, in some ways seems easier than in the winter. Never did it intentionally, but Minnesota used to have a 12 month coon season, and it would happen by accident while coon hunting.
2) your cat races will be messed up by coon unless you break your dogs off coon.
3) your cat races will be messed up by bear unless you break your dogs off bear.
4) You will need to hunt in your swimming suit if the Wisconsin side is like the minnesota side. It is the swamp gateway to hell. I am so surprised that it freezes over at all in the winter since it is perched just over hell waiting to suck you down. If you ever heard the term "when hell freezes over" you know they are talking about Wisconsin and Minnesota every winter. I am homesick for heaven. Have been ever since I got here.
5) If you are talking summer, your dogs used to running in snow will have trouble with the track through the dry areas, and then go good on it throught the wet areas. It is almost impossible to catch anything when the dogs have to constantly re-adjust their nose like that. They cant seem to do it. But it is still very good practice for them.
If you are thinking of importing a cat dog from another region, I can only say that this has never worked for me. You might be right about the Northeast though. I dont even want to say this because it seems unbeleivable, but the streight bobcat dogs I have brought here from other places wont even run these cats. They look at me like "are you crazy! You are trying to set me up on a trash race?" I kid you not. And if they ever do get to running them it is half hearted. And on the other side, the dogs are completely trustworthy on their home turf, bring em here and you gotta deer break em. It all sucks. Even if I was hunting, I would not try importing a dog from another region again. I would buy pups from any region and try them, but not broke dogs. It's probably all that sulfur smell from hell that messes them up.
I would be curious to hear from you if you try one from the Northeast. I think they may be the same great lakes cat that we have, and like you said, there are similarities in climate and topograghy.
I am kind of with you on the lion hunting. I guess it is fun seeing a lion up close and personal and I love the mountains and would go there any time I could though. I think my dogs would have sucked big time on desert lion without snow, but snow hunting a fresh lion track is probably less challenging for the dogs than coon hunting. They sure like it though.
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:23 am
David
among British lurchermen, the best breeders (consistantly turn out a high percentage of good dog) fall into two groups LINEBREEDERS (like David Hancock, although the brits say that line isn't what it used to be due to overbreeding) and first crossers. the Line breeders start w/ a foundation animal that has incredible performance and breed it to relatives and then to offspring & their offspring just like purebred breeders they try to concentrate as much of the foundation animals genes into the offspring and diminish outside blood. when outcrosses are made they are generally to related blood that performs in a like or similar manner then bred back to the original line. this is how my longdog is bred, his sire & great grand sire are the same dog. he is a useful dog & has earned his right to keep breathin, but by lurching standards he is a dud. he's caught more tree game than fast game (by caught i mean actually laid teeth on and held or killed).
OTH the first crossers start w/ two different breeds and cross them. now they don't use just any two dogs, they carefully choose the breeds based on the desired results. when the resultant dogs perform above expectations the breeder makes the same cross as needed. but when he needs to replace his breeding stock he doesn't use just any two of the original breeds, he goes back to the same lines of the purebreds involved. in this way a good first cross breeder maintains consistancy in the quality of dogs they produce.
the serious brit lurchermen are so careful about the selection of their breeding stock that even though many are interested in trying an airedale/grey cross, they haven't done it because it is too expensive to import hunt bred dales from here. they have dales there but they aren't willing to use them because the few that are "worked" are worked in sports that have little or no value to breeding a good hunter like fly ball.
there are guys doing the haphazard breeding you talked about and most of what they produce is sold cheap & winds up in a lurcher or sighthound rescue (if they're lucky). good breeders that base their programs on quality lines and careful breeding get top dollar(or pound or euro now, i think) & have a waiting list as long as my johnson. if they are first crossers their programs are highly dependant on good purebreeders.
I am a huge fan of well planned careful crossbreeding (also a huge fan of well planned careful purebreeding), but i feel it is reckless & irresponsible to espouse it for the general public. it will only result in a ton of crap dogs produced by idiots who have probably not even taken the time to produce purebred crap first. almost all the really good crossbreeders (not just hunting but other performance areas as well) i have listened to & learned from in the last 8 years, had a foundation in purebreeding and producing outstanding dogs in their breed.
Dom Donovan produced top notch belgian mals before he developed his pinscher using mostly mals, dutchies & american pit bull terriers for military & LE level K9 work.
Mike Williams in TX still produces outstanding American bulldogs & Clinton Cilliers in South Africa may be breeding the only performance Neopolitan Mastiffs in existance. Yet they have gotten together to produce personal protection Bandogs that already rival Joe Lucero's standard setting monsters.
Dutch Salmon in NM started w/ excellent coldblood greys before adding saluki & a touch of staghound to his line.
Doug Mason in TX still produces some of the best catahoulas ever bred and has founded a great cross w/ dogos under his top houla.
I am rude & probably wrong, Marc Gibbs may very well know quite a bit about crossbreeding, but that doesn't change the fact the article was halfassed & will only encourage ignorant & irresponsible actions in others.
There is not a doubt in my mind you will be very successful in your future endeavors in crossbreeding, especially w/ your successful background w/ the walkers. But your initial post encouraging cross breeding as the key to future success is just as halfassed as the article.
I don't have anything against you personally, i just VERY STRONGLY disagree on the value of crossbreeding to the average hunter/breeder.
among British lurchermen, the best breeders (consistantly turn out a high percentage of good dog) fall into two groups LINEBREEDERS (like David Hancock, although the brits say that line isn't what it used to be due to overbreeding) and first crossers. the Line breeders start w/ a foundation animal that has incredible performance and breed it to relatives and then to offspring & their offspring just like purebred breeders they try to concentrate as much of the foundation animals genes into the offspring and diminish outside blood. when outcrosses are made they are generally to related blood that performs in a like or similar manner then bred back to the original line. this is how my longdog is bred, his sire & great grand sire are the same dog. he is a useful dog & has earned his right to keep breathin, but by lurching standards he is a dud. he's caught more tree game than fast game (by caught i mean actually laid teeth on and held or killed).
OTH the first crossers start w/ two different breeds and cross them. now they don't use just any two dogs, they carefully choose the breeds based on the desired results. when the resultant dogs perform above expectations the breeder makes the same cross as needed. but when he needs to replace his breeding stock he doesn't use just any two of the original breeds, he goes back to the same lines of the purebreds involved. in this way a good first cross breeder maintains consistancy in the quality of dogs they produce.
the serious brit lurchermen are so careful about the selection of their breeding stock that even though many are interested in trying an airedale/grey cross, they haven't done it because it is too expensive to import hunt bred dales from here. they have dales there but they aren't willing to use them because the few that are "worked" are worked in sports that have little or no value to breeding a good hunter like fly ball.
there are guys doing the haphazard breeding you talked about and most of what they produce is sold cheap & winds up in a lurcher or sighthound rescue (if they're lucky). good breeders that base their programs on quality lines and careful breeding get top dollar(or pound or euro now, i think) & have a waiting list as long as my johnson. if they are first crossers their programs are highly dependant on good purebreeders.
I am a huge fan of well planned careful crossbreeding (also a huge fan of well planned careful purebreeding), but i feel it is reckless & irresponsible to espouse it for the general public. it will only result in a ton of crap dogs produced by idiots who have probably not even taken the time to produce purebred crap first. almost all the really good crossbreeders (not just hunting but other performance areas as well) i have listened to & learned from in the last 8 years, had a foundation in purebreeding and producing outstanding dogs in their breed.
Dom Donovan produced top notch belgian mals before he developed his pinscher using mostly mals, dutchies & american pit bull terriers for military & LE level K9 work.
Mike Williams in TX still produces outstanding American bulldogs & Clinton Cilliers in South Africa may be breeding the only performance Neopolitan Mastiffs in existance. Yet they have gotten together to produce personal protection Bandogs that already rival Joe Lucero's standard setting monsters.
Dutch Salmon in NM started w/ excellent coldblood greys before adding saluki & a touch of staghound to his line.
Doug Mason in TX still produces some of the best catahoulas ever bred and has founded a great cross w/ dogos under his top houla.
I am rude & probably wrong, Marc Gibbs may very well know quite a bit about crossbreeding, but that doesn't change the fact the article was halfassed & will only encourage ignorant & irresponsible actions in others.
There is not a doubt in my mind you will be very successful in your future endeavors in crossbreeding, especially w/ your successful background w/ the walkers. But your initial post encouraging cross breeding as the key to future success is just as halfassed as the article.
I don't have anything against you personally, i just VERY STRONGLY disagree on the value of crossbreeding to the average hunter/breeder.
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:27 am
Pops,
where have you been all my life? I been stumbling around out here on the beach looking at that ocean. I have seen stuff on the beach that makes me think there's somthing big goin on out there under the surface. I have even looked out and seen the head or back of something protruding up through the surface for an instant, but only enough to make me wonder if I actually saw something. I got nothin but questions and a few seashells. And here you are out there. It might have even been you in your scuba gear that I saw for that instant. You been out there in your scuba gear for eight years. And what you have seen is too wonderful to tell, because if it falls in the wrong hands, it could hurt the world instead of helping it.
Isn't it just the way it goes that those who dont really know the whole truth are out there trying to make the world a better place for everyone else, and only making things worse. And those who do know the truth figure the world is too dumb to handle it so let em wallow in their ignorance and call anyone who would do otherwise a fraud in order to protect the world from knowledge that might hurt em.
Well, I got only one thing to say to that: "They are crossing sight hounds with terriers, that is making up the majority of the breed." Why? again I ask: Why??? Some have said it is because neither parent could perform as well as the offspring of the two. But I am going to tell all of you why, and I hope you never forget it. It is because when those people talk they sound like Hillary Clinton.
I will say to Devin that you have a beautiful heritage there that has been passed from father to son for generations. I hope it goes on for many generations more. I hope you keep it pure and strong just like your daddy did and his daddy befor that. And I hope you and everyone reading this has the richest, most fantastic year of your life in 2008. And remember, they are just dogs.
I am not going to say I will not ever be back to this board, but I will say, I need to try and stay away for awhile. I would say I love you all, but then you would think I am gay or something. It aint what a cowboy would say. I dont think Jesus ever said it either, that we know of. He just did it. I will say there are a lot of good people on here and I sure am glad I got to know each of you a little bit. If I dont get to meet you in this world, hopefully in the next.
God bless you,
david
where have you been all my life? I been stumbling around out here on the beach looking at that ocean. I have seen stuff on the beach that makes me think there's somthing big goin on out there under the surface. I have even looked out and seen the head or back of something protruding up through the surface for an instant, but only enough to make me wonder if I actually saw something. I got nothin but questions and a few seashells. And here you are out there. It might have even been you in your scuba gear that I saw for that instant. You been out there in your scuba gear for eight years. And what you have seen is too wonderful to tell, because if it falls in the wrong hands, it could hurt the world instead of helping it.
Isn't it just the way it goes that those who dont really know the whole truth are out there trying to make the world a better place for everyone else, and only making things worse. And those who do know the truth figure the world is too dumb to handle it so let em wallow in their ignorance and call anyone who would do otherwise a fraud in order to protect the world from knowledge that might hurt em.
Well, I got only one thing to say to that: "They are crossing sight hounds with terriers, that is making up the majority of the breed." Why? again I ask: Why??? Some have said it is because neither parent could perform as well as the offspring of the two. But I am going to tell all of you why, and I hope you never forget it. It is because when those people talk they sound like Hillary Clinton.
I will say to Devin that you have a beautiful heritage there that has been passed from father to son for generations. I hope it goes on for many generations more. I hope you keep it pure and strong just like your daddy did and his daddy befor that. And I hope you and everyone reading this has the richest, most fantastic year of your life in 2008. And remember, they are just dogs.
I am not going to say I will not ever be back to this board, but I will say, I need to try and stay away for awhile. I would say I love you all, but then you would think I am gay or something. It aint what a cowboy would say. I dont think Jesus ever said it either, that we know of. He just did it. I will say there are a lot of good people on here and I sure am glad I got to know each of you a little bit. If I dont get to meet you in this world, hopefully in the next.
God bless you,
david
crossbreeding
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:54 pm
Man, David, you are a little on the gay side and you talk too damn much for me but I do agree with you on your points. I have yet to see a dog that grabs a track and runs it a like a traditional hound or cur be worth a damn for me at catching game. The dogs that were the best at catching game for me somehow caught it in a different manner when it was totally and completely unexpected. The best I have ever seen at it was a brindle cur gyp that I had. She was not a treedog but caught me loads and loads of coon and treed just hard enough and stayed for me to get there. She caught coyotes in the daytime in the most peculiar fashions. While other dogs would still be running around actin like the damn fools that they were, she would be bayed up 3 miles away. That bitch was strange to say the least but was the most dominating game catcher that I have ever layed eyes on and I have a daughter and a grandaughter out of her that are just about the same as her. All of them are crossbred but I kept the whole litters and culled accordingly. By the way, they never bark on the chain either and are always watching me and paying attention to me.
Your still a weirdo though.
Your still a weirdo though.
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:08 pm
Hound
We did alright on cats this year, but I never filled my tag. Just had the cat jinx I guess. I don't have a have any real solid dogs on cats, so I was hunting here/there with a few other guys. I'm in the NW part of the state about an hour south of Superior. I've ran over north of you a bit in years past on cats and have had some succes, and also been schooled. You've got a much better cat pop than we do over here. Quite a bit less pressure too, but it's hard to drive a few hours when gas is$3 a gallon. Plus a guy can sleep in his own bed.
Dan
You ever crank up any cats. I thought you had said you had a tag this year.
Devin,
Doors open anytime you want to drop for bear. I'd offer up cats, but I can't fathom why you'd leave there to hunt here for them. But I'd still take a dog that can get me 15 cat races here in a year over one that can get me 100 someplace else. With that at least I'd get some of my other rum-dums on a few chases and see if they've got "it".
We did alright on cats this year, but I never filled my tag. Just had the cat jinx I guess. I don't have a have any real solid dogs on cats, so I was hunting here/there with a few other guys. I'm in the NW part of the state about an hour south of Superior. I've ran over north of you a bit in years past on cats and have had some succes, and also been schooled. You've got a much better cat pop than we do over here. Quite a bit less pressure too, but it's hard to drive a few hours when gas is$3 a gallon. Plus a guy can sleep in his own bed.
Dan
You ever crank up any cats. I thought you had said you had a tag this year.
Devin,
Doors open anytime you want to drop for bear. I'd offer up cats, but I can't fathom why you'd leave there to hunt here for them. But I'd still take a dog that can get me 15 cat races here in a year over one that can get me 100 someplace else.
With that at least I'd get some of my other rum-dums on a few chases and see if they've got "it".cat tag?
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:39 pm
Hey bro, you must have been drinkin again. We aint even got bobcats around here. Either that or you are talkin to a different Dan.
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:50 pm
It's probably a little of both. I knew 3 different Dans who had cat tags, and you must NOT be one of them. I get mixed up pretty easy.
I get mixed up pretty easy.Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:21 pm
I was going to say, if anyone wants to get ahold of me, send me a pm because Buddy has it set up that I get a notice in my e-mail.
I did get some pm's and a couple very interesting phone calls. One of them was to let me know that mr pacojack has been holding out a little information about his lead dog in his bobcat pack. I wont tell you what it is, but I will invite mr pacojack to tell you.
One pm made me think that I left the impression that I was trying to leave the board because I am mad. Not at all. I am trying to stay away because I can feel myself getting dog drunk again. Driving impared is one thing, but driving 70 or 80 thousand pounds and 75 feet down the freeway at 65 mph, impared is quite another. I dont even own a dog, and I would be way embarrased to tell you how much I think about hunting with them.
One other pm was from a young man who is very interested in what we talk about here, but has no background in it. It made me feel good to know that there are guys like him considering all this and getting interested. It also made me realize sometimes we just assume people know stuff when they do not. I tried to answer some of his questions for him, and copied it to paste it here.
I do talk to much Dan. Fortunately for you, silence is just one click of the mouse away. You might want to click now if your ears are tired:
Hey ,
good to hear from you.
I meant that the Lurchers in the two books I read about them were produced by breeding a greyhound with something else. They used several different type dogs for the "something else". If they got a good Lurcher from their cross and then they tried breeding that dog to another good cross bred lurcher, they got nothing that could hunt very well. they had to go back and breed the greyhound to the something else again. I get the feeling from things said by Mr Pacojack, and Pops that the books I read are fairly outdated and that some changes have taken place in the Lurcher world since they were written.
The lurchers used to be used on the British Iles by the poor hunters who did not have land to hunt on. They poached at night to catch rabbits and fox with their single Lurcher. they could sell the rabbits in the market the next day. The dogs had to be completely silent, or they would be found out. I think now there are lurchers being used in some places in the US to catch coyotes in areas that have a lot of open country so the dogs can see the coyotes.
I am not advocating using a greyhound cross for bobcat, I am simply looking at the principle involved in producing cross bred lurchers and wondering if the principle could be applied in a predictable way to producing good bobcat dogs, or good 'anything' dogs for that matter.
The thing about bobcats is that some of their physical characteristics (scent, etc), and their normal habits while hunting and their normal habits when they are being pursued make them a tremendous challenge for dogs that easily catch coon or lion or bear or coyote or whatever. Part of my point is that in some locations our dogs used for coon, bear and lion, do not have the hunting instincts that match up well with bobcat behavior.
In some areas, the pure hounds have been developed that do very well on bobcat. In the Northwest where I used to hunt, many cats will never be seen by the dogs because they climb well befor a dog could lay eyes on it. I stood on a landing and watched one climb once when the dogs were still a quarter mile back. I dont think they all climb this early, yet, if the dogs were close enough to see the cats climb, we would not need the magical locating dogs that every pack needs out there. By "locating" I mean basically, figuring out that the track ended, the cat is up somewhere, and figuring out exactly what tree it is in. This would never be a problem if the dogs were close enough to see the cat climb.
In other areas, like Minnesota, 4 out of 5 bobcats would rather die than to climb a tree. To catch these with dogs, they have to be caught on the ground and held at bay or killed by the dogs. In my experience,
My theory is that there are dogs in the canine world that might not be used a lot for coon, lion and bear, but whose hunting instincts might better match bobcat behavior. They need many of the skills of a hound, but I beleive they have to be able to overcome some of the very strong hound instincts. One thing I loved about my Walkers is that I did'nt have to teach them very much except what not to run. They did it all automatically from cold trail to treeing all night. But their very strong instincts caused them to make some mistakes when hunting bobcats. Instead of learning from some of those mistakes, they repeated the same mistakes until the day they died.
I am not a breeder, but if I was, one of my goals in crossbreeding would be to add more cognitive reasoning ability to the instincts, so they can gradually learn to overcome their instinct when their instinct fails them in their goal of catching the bobcat.
My next goal would be to add the ability of the dogs that use all of their senses when hunting, and not primarily their nose. They need the nose, but they need eyes and ears as well. Some hounds get that scent in their nostrils and it is like cocain to them. They can not see or hear, their head is down. You can almost see a pipe they are runing through, and they seem completely oblivious that there might be a world outside that pipe.
This is a highly refined hunting style. It took many many years to develop this in dogs. It is very far from the hunting style of the wolf.
A wolf will trail when it has to. I think I have even seen footage of a wolf with his head down trailing. But you dont see them with their head down very much. The scent trail is only a necessary evil to get them within sight and hearing of their prey. They might chase it down if that works, or they might get around in front of it if that works. They might have one wolf chase it while one gets in front of it. They learn what works and what does not work and they use what works and discard the methods that do not work. As much as I hate the dog killing wolves, these are some of the traits I enjoy seeing in a bobcat dog. They are for the most part absent from pure hounds, but they are present in dogs whose instincts are far less refined. If you think about it, this is pretty much the way the herd dogs "hunt" their "prey", but their instincts have been refined toward control and protection rather than kill and eat.
The problem with the dog I talked about earlier who had the leopard cur, hound, and border collie in her background, is that she was too soft in attitude. The last time I hunted with her, I was worried that she might go the way of some bear dogs that get whipped out. She was getting tired of meeting big bobcats all by herself. When she was tired and hunted down, you would see her holding back and following the other dogs at times like the star running back waiting for a down feild block from one of his linemen. I had thoughts like "a bit of terrier blood might fix that".
So the reason I use the Lurchers as a possible model is because I am not aware of a breed of dog that has all the qualities that I feel the best bobcat catching dog would have. Yet I beleive that all the traits do exist in the dog world. So what I am trying to get people to consider is the possibility of getting all those traits in one dog through cross breeding after the manner of the Lurcher breeders. As Pops has pointed out, it is not a simple matter, and maybe I am wrong to even put such thoughts in peoples heads. I guess I do it though for that one person who has the mind and the desire to take bobcat dog breeding to a level it has possibly never been befor. As dog breeds go, it is a brand new world with many possibilities to be explored. I would venture to guess that if there is any breed out there that could actually be called "the bobcat dog" it has only been around for 100 years or less, compared to the other breeds such as the greyhound that was etched on the tombs of the pyramids.
Thanks for your good questions. I hope this helps some. I will copy and post this without your name, for other young men (and women) who might be wondering the same things.
I did get some pm's and a couple very interesting phone calls. One of them was to let me know that mr pacojack has been holding out a little information about his lead dog in his bobcat pack. I wont tell you what it is, but I will invite mr pacojack to tell you.
One pm made me think that I left the impression that I was trying to leave the board because I am mad. Not at all. I am trying to stay away because I can feel myself getting dog drunk again. Driving impared is one thing, but driving 70 or 80 thousand pounds and 75 feet down the freeway at 65 mph, impared is quite another. I dont even own a dog, and I would be way embarrased to tell you how much I think about hunting with them.
One other pm was from a young man who is very interested in what we talk about here, but has no background in it. It made me feel good to know that there are guys like him considering all this and getting interested. It also made me realize sometimes we just assume people know stuff when they do not. I tried to answer some of his questions for him, and copied it to paste it here.
I do talk to much Dan. Fortunately for you, silence is just one click of the mouse away. You might want to click now if your ears are tired:
Hey ,
good to hear from you.
I meant that the Lurchers in the two books I read about them were produced by breeding a greyhound with something else. They used several different type dogs for the "something else". If they got a good Lurcher from their cross and then they tried breeding that dog to another good cross bred lurcher, they got nothing that could hunt very well. they had to go back and breed the greyhound to the something else again. I get the feeling from things said by Mr Pacojack, and Pops that the books I read are fairly outdated and that some changes have taken place in the Lurcher world since they were written.
The lurchers used to be used on the British Iles by the poor hunters who did not have land to hunt on. They poached at night to catch rabbits and fox with their single Lurcher. they could sell the rabbits in the market the next day. The dogs had to be completely silent, or they would be found out. I think now there are lurchers being used in some places in the US to catch coyotes in areas that have a lot of open country so the dogs can see the coyotes.
I am not advocating using a greyhound cross for bobcat, I am simply looking at the principle involved in producing cross bred lurchers and wondering if the principle could be applied in a predictable way to producing good bobcat dogs, or good 'anything' dogs for that matter.
The thing about bobcats is that some of their physical characteristics (scent, etc), and their normal habits while hunting and their normal habits when they are being pursued make them a tremendous challenge for dogs that easily catch coon or lion or bear or coyote or whatever. Part of my point is that in some locations our dogs used for coon, bear and lion, do not have the hunting instincts that match up well with bobcat behavior.
In some areas, the pure hounds have been developed that do very well on bobcat. In the Northwest where I used to hunt, many cats will never be seen by the dogs because they climb well befor a dog could lay eyes on it. I stood on a landing and watched one climb once when the dogs were still a quarter mile back. I dont think they all climb this early, yet, if the dogs were close enough to see the cats climb, we would not need the magical locating dogs that every pack needs out there. By "locating" I mean basically, figuring out that the track ended, the cat is up somewhere, and figuring out exactly what tree it is in. This would never be a problem if the dogs were close enough to see the cat climb.
In other areas, like Minnesota, 4 out of 5 bobcats would rather die than to climb a tree. To catch these with dogs, they have to be caught on the ground and held at bay or killed by the dogs. In my experience,
My theory is that there are dogs in the canine world that might not be used a lot for coon, lion and bear, but whose hunting instincts might better match bobcat behavior. They need many of the skills of a hound, but I beleive they have to be able to overcome some of the very strong hound instincts. One thing I loved about my Walkers is that I did'nt have to teach them very much except what not to run. They did it all automatically from cold trail to treeing all night. But their very strong instincts caused them to make some mistakes when hunting bobcats. Instead of learning from some of those mistakes, they repeated the same mistakes until the day they died.
I am not a breeder, but if I was, one of my goals in crossbreeding would be to add more cognitive reasoning ability to the instincts, so they can gradually learn to overcome their instinct when their instinct fails them in their goal of catching the bobcat.
My next goal would be to add the ability of the dogs that use all of their senses when hunting, and not primarily their nose. They need the nose, but they need eyes and ears as well. Some hounds get that scent in their nostrils and it is like cocain to them. They can not see or hear, their head is down. You can almost see a pipe they are runing through, and they seem completely oblivious that there might be a world outside that pipe.
This is a highly refined hunting style. It took many many years to develop this in dogs. It is very far from the hunting style of the wolf.
A wolf will trail when it has to. I think I have even seen footage of a wolf with his head down trailing. But you dont see them with their head down very much. The scent trail is only a necessary evil to get them within sight and hearing of their prey. They might chase it down if that works, or they might get around in front of it if that works. They might have one wolf chase it while one gets in front of it. They learn what works and what does not work and they use what works and discard the methods that do not work. As much as I hate the dog killing wolves, these are some of the traits I enjoy seeing in a bobcat dog. They are for the most part absent from pure hounds, but they are present in dogs whose instincts are far less refined. If you think about it, this is pretty much the way the herd dogs "hunt" their "prey", but their instincts have been refined toward control and protection rather than kill and eat.
The problem with the dog I talked about earlier who had the leopard cur, hound, and border collie in her background, is that she was too soft in attitude. The last time I hunted with her, I was worried that she might go the way of some bear dogs that get whipped out. She was getting tired of meeting big bobcats all by herself. When she was tired and hunted down, you would see her holding back and following the other dogs at times like the star running back waiting for a down feild block from one of his linemen. I had thoughts like "a bit of terrier blood might fix that".
So the reason I use the Lurchers as a possible model is because I am not aware of a breed of dog that has all the qualities that I feel the best bobcat catching dog would have. Yet I beleive that all the traits do exist in the dog world. So what I am trying to get people to consider is the possibility of getting all those traits in one dog through cross breeding after the manner of the Lurcher breeders. As Pops has pointed out, it is not a simple matter, and maybe I am wrong to even put such thoughts in peoples heads. I guess I do it though for that one person who has the mind and the desire to take bobcat dog breeding to a level it has possibly never been befor. As dog breeds go, it is a brand new world with many possibilities to be explored. I would venture to guess that if there is any breed out there that could actually be called "the bobcat dog" it has only been around for 100 years or less, compared to the other breeds such as the greyhound that was etched on the tombs of the pyramids.
Thanks for your good questions. I hope this helps some. I will copy and post this without your name, for other young men (and women) who might be wondering the same things.
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:27 pm
A Male Reg. Walker, very young one to boot and my next lead dog is a female Sam Faulk walker and the next one is another female Sam Faulk walker I have a 12 year old cross bred dogs if that is what your sorce is refering too but she is almost 13 and I asure you she is not my lead dog.
I have nothing against cross bred dogs and this one I have was a very good one in her day, but it was a fluke and believe me I tried to reproduce her and without line breeding and a genitic background it was impossible and there is where we disagree,not on cross bred dogs but breeding. Twenty years ago I might have agreed with you but I have lived and tried what you are talking about and can asure you you have no Idea what you are talking about.( to consitantly breed and reproduce TOP crossbred dogs.)
There are plenty of good cross bred dogs out there, top notch cross bred dogs but they can't reproduce their likness, I have tried.
Let me give you a list of dogs I have tried.
All 6 breeds of the hounds
Jagd terriers
Kemmer curs
Treeing curs
Airedales
Border collies
Jack Russell Terriers
Beagals
Stags
greyhounds
and Bloodhounds
and every cross in between.
I currantly own
Reg Walkers (6)
A jagd/Walker cross 13 year old
Border collie (Used for coyotes and he runs lion too and trees)
Kemmer cur (run mostly coyote, and bear lion and bobcat)
Kemmer/Airedale (3 pups, 4 months old)( Trying them for coyote dogs)
Airedale ( use him for coyotes but will pack in on Bear ,Lion and Bobacts)
Now please tell me I am Color blind Please tell me I am closed minded to cross bred dogs Please tell me I dont' know what I am talking about because I haven't tried it You see David I have nothing to hide and that is why I invited you and Nolte to come on out.You can see my dogs in action and what my lead dog is.
I'll bet your little contact didn't tell you all the chit I have did he?But you are welcome to come see them anytime cuz every dog I have serves a purpose for me and I dont keep chit they either have meat or they are gone The cost is the same to feed a good dog and a bad dog 
Ask me which are my best dogs for big game and that would be my Walkers. Ask which has been my best dog I have ever owned ...It was a Reg English dog.
One more thing you talked about was going from snow to dirt and back and forth. We in Utah do it all the time.Most of the winter the south facing slopes are bear. And it shows your igorance.. even if we had snow cover all the time it varies so much, we get some snow that is so sugary that I would rather run on dirt( I would rather run dirt anyway and I do) some frozen stuff that the cat walks on top and leaves not track or scent.....come on, be real, no one person lives in the ideal conditions, some may have it beter than others but believe me a cat is a cat, a bear is a bear ,and a coon is a coon. And if I was to think you couldn't tree a cat here I would be crazy and if you think I couldn't tree a cat there you are crazy.
Like I have said before I have enjoyed your articals on breeding and your thoughts, I think most of it comes from books and not experience but never the less I have enjoyed them.
I have seen top dogs in every breed and I am not saying I have the magic bobcat dog but this is what works for me and it is so funny when someone comes along and says he has the magic dog, like you have done and encourages everyone to just start breeding junk because it will produce top notch dogs, you have to admitt that is crazy???
I will pm this to you so you get it my freind and God bless you in your endevors I hope they work and keep me posted if you prove me wrong, like I said I am open minded
I have a 12 year old cross bred dogs if that is what your sorce is refering too but she is almost 13 and I asure you she is not my lead dog. I have nothing against cross bred dogs and this one I have was a very good one in her day, but it was a fluke and believe me I tried to reproduce her and without line breeding and a genitic background it was impossible and there is where we disagree,not on cross bred dogs but breeding. Twenty years ago I might have agreed with you but I have lived and tried what you are talking about and can asure you you have no Idea what you are talking about.( to consitantly breed and reproduce TOP crossbred dogs.)
There are plenty of good cross bred dogs out there, top notch cross bred dogs but they can't reproduce their likness, I have tried.
Let me give you a list of dogs I have tried.
All 6 breeds of the hounds
Jagd terriers
Kemmer curs
Treeing curs
Airedales
Border collies
Jack Russell Terriers
Beagals
Stags
greyhounds
and Bloodhounds
and every cross in between.
I currantly own
Reg Walkers (6)
A jagd/Walker cross 13 year old
Border collie (Used for coyotes and he runs lion too and trees)
Kemmer cur (run mostly coyote, and bear lion and bobcat)
Kemmer/Airedale (3 pups, 4 months old)( Trying them for coyote dogs)
Airedale ( use him for coyotes but will pack in on Bear ,Lion and Bobacts)
Now please tell me I am Color blind
Please tell me I am closed minded to cross bred dogs Please tell me I dont' know what I am talking about because I haven't tried it You see David I have nothing to hide and that is why I invited you and Nolte to come on out.You can see my dogs in action and what my lead dog is. I'll bet your little contact didn't tell you all the chit I have did he?But you are welcome to come see them anytime cuz every dog I have serves a purpose for me and I dont keep chit they either have meat or they are gone
The cost is the same to feed a good dog and a bad dog Ask me which are my best dogs for big game and that would be my Walkers. Ask which has been my best dog I have ever owned ...It was a Reg English dog.
One more thing you talked about was going from snow to dirt and back and forth. We in Utah do it all the time.Most of the winter the south facing slopes are bear. And it shows your igorance.. even if we had snow cover all the time it varies so much, we get some snow that is so sugary that I would rather run on dirt( I would rather run dirt anyway and I do) some frozen stuff that the cat walks on top and leaves not track or scent.....come on, be real, no one person lives in the ideal conditions, some may have it beter than others but believe me a cat is a cat, a bear is a bear ,and a coon is a coon. And if I was to think you couldn't tree a cat here I would be crazy and if you think I couldn't tree a cat there you are crazy.
Like I have said before I have enjoyed your articals on breeding and your thoughts, I think most of it comes from books and not experience but never the less I have enjoyed them.
I have seen top dogs in every breed and I am not saying I have the magic bobcat dog but this is what works for me and it is so funny when someone comes along and says he has the magic dog, like you have done and encourages everyone to just start breeding junk because it will produce top notch dogs, you have to admitt that is crazy???
I will pm this to you so you get it my freind and God bless you in your endevors I hope they work and keep me posted if you prove me wrong, like I said I am open minded
humor
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:32 pm
David,
My post was a half hearted attempt at humore but I guess it was lost on you. I do like reading what your write so damn take me so damn serious. It must be the weak wristed side of ya.
My post was a half hearted attempt at humore but I guess it was lost on you. I do like reading what your write so damn take me so damn serious. It must be the weak wristed side of ya.