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Where would you propose they graze BHP?

BLM and state land would work. I know that there will always be livestock on the forest service, just wish they weren't EVERYWHERE.

Posse the pies are well worth the Benefits if our forest got grazed it would make it a heap nicer. When the stock gets kicked off it gets overgrown and trashy. the trails grow over and you have to carry more gear to keep your favorite circles open and pray you don't get in a tight spot following a FS trail. Then the fuel loads build and the fires do more damage then normally that in itself is enough reason to graze them responsibly. Then if they'd take those grazing fees and do a bit of trail maintenance it might just give a couple guys jobs. Ive had a few experiences with those dogs but never with hounds along. I think the anatolians 'sp? Maybe the more aggressive but who knows. they're damn big. I really have no issue with dogs being aggressive/protective as long as they are under control and supervised in accordance with their behavior. I do have a special spot in my heart for German shepherds, I've been bit more by them then any other. Honestly besides ankle biters I've not been bit but maybe three or four times seriously by any other breed. I'm of the firm belief no matter what method or who trains a "working" GSD if the handler or you turn your back or give the sneaky shit a chance they will take it. I much prefer a honest dog that doesn't lie about wanting a piece of you. That you can deal with. Why is this dog killer still roaming around public lands unsupervised to boot?

Big Horn Posse wrote:BLM and state land would work. I know that there will always be livestock on the forest service, just wish they weren't EVERYWHERE.

X2

I do get a little tired of seeing cow pies everywhere I go or my dogs, for who the hell knows why, roll in a real sloppy one. Whew wee. You gotta stand up wind of that sucker the rest of the hunt.

Oh well it gives the lions an occasional meal(sorry ranchers) and me an occasional trail. And you have to admit it is pretty funny seeing a young dog meet a big cow.

Back to the topic. I can't see how having a dog roaming and killing like that, regard less of if you are a herder or not, is legal. I know it sure ain't right.

Zach

expect it to get worse before it gets better. the pyrenese & anatolians which are most common are the laid back ones. some folks are starting to bring out high performance breeds that make those two look like lap dogs. the ahkbash is the faster one and about on par w/ the anatolians for heat. the Kangal & the central asian breeds are straight killers. in fact the turks say the kangal is one of the two or three breeds that can kill a wolf one up (however their wolves top out in the 70# range). the other and the breed that makes the Kangal look second rate is the Boz. the boz is so new to the USA that there are less than a dozen in the country. but the kangal has a growing following among people looking for something to stand up to stuff bigger than a coyote.
if you run up against one have your weapon at the ready because you almost certainly will need it.
the guardians from central asia are dual purpose stock & camp/home guards and are dangerous as crap same as a kangal.
we had some of the smaller Iraqi dogs come 400 yds across open desert to challenge our trucks. same kind of mindset for most of the guardian dogs coming out of that area.

Pegleg
i'm with you on the sheperds. i've been bitten by more of those than anything else. but what really gets my panties in a wad is belgian malinois. they are the breed of choice for the US military and every one i've met has bitten it's own handler at least once. most have bitten multiple handlers multiple times.

Now I know why he had the inside of his pants tucked in his boots..... I never would have guessed Benny to be a sheep herder..

Zack, BHP, It's funny that you here so many people complaining about the farmer driving his damn tractor down the road taking up their precious time, and also funny how people complain about the rancher having his livestock in the mountains in the way of their hike or hunt or outing. Lots of people want to cut the rancher's cinch, but these people who complain haven't a clue about the ranching and farming world. People forget who is providing the food and the clothes, and milk in the store, they're more concerned about their selfish wants. In my opinion the farmer and rancher should be put up on a pedistal right there by our troops and servicemen and women, but I know you think you're the only ones who should be in the mountains in your own little selfish romantic day dreams. I'll try to keep the cow shit off YOUR trails!

Posse – Hop on up here to Montana, They kick our cows off of the Forest Service long before any seasons open up. The cow-pies are froze hard and under three feet of snow, them hounds are plumb safe from all that toxicity then!

I agree with Pegleg on the benefits of public land grazing. I have seen some ranches that sold to “conservation minded” folks that don't allow livestock on. Within three years those places are so overgrown with dry grass, burrs, brush and weeds that the game completely abandons it. If I tried to hunt even my most gopher-haired plott dog in there, she would come out so covered in cockle-burs she'd look like a woolly mammoth! A true conservationist would either graze it or at least surround it with fire trucks and burn it clean every other year or so.

The coyotes and bears pretty well run all of the sheepmen out of business in my neck of the woods.
They tried guard dogs, Llamas, donkeys all with limited success. Anybody still in the sheep business is in a fight for their very survival so I hope people are willing cut them a little slack. That being said – as dog owners ourselves, we all know that we are responsible for any damage our dogs do. I would think that turning guard dogs out on public land would be a huge liability.

I had a 3 month old puppy nearly killed by a neighbor's StBernards. He allowed them to run loose to guard his haystacks from elk. I was digging a post hole and the pup was 30 yards away baying at a squirrel when those big dogs suddenly popped up and started to stretch her out. I waded in there with my true value spade and discouraged them a mite. After a trip to the vet, that pup went on to grow into a pretty good hound but she still totally freaks out whenever she sees a yellow colored dog!

I was talking to a local houndsman who stated that he was through hunting in my neighborhood. He was sick and tired of dumping his dogs out on a huge “cat track” and hiking three miles through the deep snow just to find his dogs dancing around a very disgusted looking St Bernard! I expect that might be the “rest of the story”!

Good perspective Deff.

Pops, those are some pretty tough dogs from the sound of it. I wonder if one could raise them with your hounds to possibly help protect them from the wolf problems in the northern states.

Coldtrack. Thanks for understanding as I don't have a clue about ranching OR farming. It's not like my family comes from the northern plains where we owned a horse ranch, cattle ranch and farmed. I'm not against the cows, just their crap. I do appreciate the trails they leave into those brushy, nasty canyons. It sure as hell beats bushwacking to get into them. (By the way, off on a tangent, how come the cows never clear those damn canyons of brush?) A pedestal for them. I don't know about that. They are like everyone, doing a job to provide for their family. Many people produce things that are taken for granted that do not receive credit. What about the toilet paper manufacturing worker. He has a pretty important job, does he not? Don't we all deserve a pedestal as we are all important cogs in this machine! Thanks again for keeping MY trails clean. Do you have a number so I can call you when YOUR cows shit on MY trail. It may help you save a little time cleaning up after them or maybe you should invest in bovine Depends diapers.

As far as livestock clearing the land and keeping down the weeds. With all due respect it sounds a little self serving. Like the deer hunters that say if we didn't kill deer they would wind up starving. Why is that? Did the cows eat all of their food? How were they ever able to survive before we graced them with our presence or our cows! Back east they have huge dear populations, and NO cows. Of course that is comparing apples to oranges, but...

Now we used to have larger herds of elk, deer and buffalo that would tear up the ground and eat the brush and since their numbers are lower or near 0 in regards to the buffalo, something might need to be done in some areas, but I do not believe that without the cows everything would be choked with brush. Maybe for a while, but in the grand scheme of things the earth would continue to spin and the lands would be just fine. Heck within 50-100 years they would probably be back to having a few trees a little brush and NO cows.

I hope I haven't ruffed to many feathers. I do have a lot of respect and genuine thanks for hunters, ranchers, farmers and anyone else who came before us or is doing it today as you are truly feeding the world with your products and doing a job few would care to do. Take it easy guys, I'm going to go now and eat a burger and fries.

Zach

Well, I have NOTHING against ranching, never said I did. I have lived and worked on many ranches both cattle and sheep. I do believe that ranchers that have grazing rights in certain areas should not abuse those rights and I do believe that ranchers need to mind their stock on the mountain as well as their guard dogs. The sheep in this incident were long moved out of the area according to the warden but the dog was still in there feasting on elk. I have been around ranching near my whole life and know a lot of times those dogs are left out of there to fend for themselves. I have seen emaciated guard dogs that look completely pathetic. If a rancher is going to keep these dogs, by gosh take care of them. I also talked to a local big time sheep rancher here in Kaycee today and asked him his opinion on the situation and he told me if it were him he would make good use of his rifle on the SOB. Again I am not saying I am against ranchers or grazing, but I do think ranchers just like sportsmen need to take responsibilty for their actions and the actions of their animals. I get pissed off when people drive all over the national forest instead of staying on marked roads like they are supposed to and really get ticked off when they trash a place they camped. I enjoy being out there and the last thing I want to see is people abusing it no matter who it is.

This is a touchy subject with me, I get so sick of listening to deer and elk hunters complaining about the livestock in the mountains so that's probably where my quick frustration with your comments came from. Probably went at you a little hard, but that is how passionate about ranching and the lifestyle I am. Sometimes people say things that get at others without knowing, but it would be the same as if I was complaining about a guide killing" MY LIONS" . As far as the guard dog goes, if the sheep are long gone and he's killing game and causing other problems he needs to be bedded down. My best friend's dad is a sheep man in Wy. and I know if they didn't have all the dogs when they moved the sheep he went looking for them. And yes, you can rope em! Seems to be the best way to catch one without getting chewed up.

Pops wrote:the pyrenese & anatolians in fact the turks say the kangal is one of the two or three breeds that can kill a wolf one up (however their wolves top out in the 70# range).

Eurasian Wolf - Canis lupus lupus
The Wolf of Eurasia is almost identical in size and behavior to that of the Plains Wolf of North America.
Standing 30 inches at the shoulder, males weigh approximately 70 - 130 pounds, females are 20 percent smaller. The heaviest known Eurasian wolf weighed 158 pounds when it was killed in Romaina.

There is a wide range in pelt color, with combinations of white, cream, red, gray, and black. The young are born in late April and May with an average of 6 pups. In their southern range, such as Spain, the wolves roam in smaller packs of one to three animals and primarily feed on red deer, roe deer, and wild boar.'

Boarhunter1
great info about the euarsian grey. keep in mind however that eurasian is a catchall for several related subspecies.
now MOST importantly, the subspecies that inhabits turkey is the Iranian wolf. it is not considered a subspecies of the large eurasian. the iranian wolf typically runs from 55-70#.