BigGameHoundsmen.com

i agree with ringo there was not much that impressed me about the swan when i went hunting with him down there sure the conditions where crappy but the dogs still rigged up a cat but the track was small. I live in the trego area and i like many others seem to be catching the same cats all seem to be in the 80-110 lbs range. i did tree see 2 nice toms on of which was shot by a guy localy here after i let it go and it weighed about 150+ then i got 2 dogs killed on the ground by one that was pushing the 180 mark. but thats 2 cats out of 29 that i have caught. there seems to be alot of sub adults. Is what i dont get is the bobcat population now i am from oregon originally and the country i hunt here in montana reseambles where i hunted there which was jam packed full of bobs. i have only caught 5 and really havent seen many more tracks then that. it doesnt make any sense there is tons of small critters to support aa much hirer population then that. but on subject at hand the cats in my district seem to be every where just not much size. thats my 2 cents i dont think its even worth that

larry wrote:sad part is the way they keep raising quotas. They don't know what the lion pop is, so they have no way of properly managing them. Unfortunately the harvest objective of the total population is well over what FWP would consider acceptable for ay other species they manage. I believe that the quotas set where I hunt are harvesting at least 50% of the lion pop, AT LEAST! What other species does FWP attempt to harvest 50% of the pop anually? Elk? Hell no! Not even Wolves!!! The other sad part is the guys that just gotta kill em if they are on the quota, from what I've seen this mentality makes up the majority of houndsmen at the regional meetings, theres a paycheck under the table or insecurities and ego issues that can only be fed by dumping out more cats than the next guy, alot of these jokers around, ALOT! Every area is different, but I have seen steady declines where I like to recreate personally, and it looks like a pretty gloomy future down the road, pretty sure its only gonna get worse, and the majority of guys with a box in their truck are gonna be the ones to blame. At least around my part of the country thats whats goin on. theres quite a few hound doggers within a 50-75 mile radius and I don't think there's a one in the general vicinity that would let a legal quota cat live if it climbed, thats pathetic.

Larry, what units do you hunt? Are you saying that they are killing 50% of the lion population in the combined harvest units that you hunt?

i'm sayin that the quota is so high that it has to be at least 50% of the pop or more in each HD where I hunt. Pretty sure a lot of guys would agree with that through out the state. they change HD boundaries, add more cats and next thing ya know ONE HD that was 4 cats total 3 years ago is all of a sudden 2 different HD's and a total of 11 cats, still the same area, just put a new HD in it with its own quota.

Look what they proposed to do in the Bridgers!!! They live in a fantasy world where they think the Bridgers can be a trophy mule deer draw, which isn't happening, so they keep raising the quota but can't seem to figure out that on any given day you could literally set up a spotting scope and the odds of actually seeing coyotes whackin a deer are very very high! i don't know what the quota was there 3-4 years ago but they are trying to jump it to 9-10 this year. It's usually still open through feb as it is. Do I think theres 18-22 lions living in the Bridger mountain range, nope I sure don't, but they are gonna try to kill half that next year. Same goes for the Elkhorns, the Big Belts and Little Belts. From I15 east it gets pretty ridiculous, and they really pound the shit out of em in Region 4.

I hunt in Unit 100 and our population seems healthy minus big toms. I have tag for this season and also had a tag last year and didn't fill last years tag or this year's tag yet. This permit system has wiped out our big toms. I am with BIGBLUE for going back to the quota though the hound guys in this area all seem opposed. Last year I was going for a minimum 150 lb. and treed one that I estimated to be 140 lb. This year I decided 140 lb. is my minimum. Out of the 28 I treed I think a couple might have made 120 lb. We need a shorter kill season which would create a sense of emergency for tag holders to fill there tags and be happy with subadults allowing the 120 pounders to grow bigger.

dhostetler Is it possible that the genics that produce those large toms has been lost? A seven and half month long season and some hardcore lion hunters can surely take the large toms year after year. It is very intresting to me that two years in a row you are treeing smaller cats.

Im totally against going back to the quota system! I believe were finally getting are population back and a guy can finally go out and catch a few cats instead of driving around for days seeing nothing. I would agree some of the bigger toms are gone but there still some out there u just have to get out of ur truck and hunt dif area instead of hunting the same 3 or 4 cats over and over again. Why would u want to open a free for all again and kill all the 120 pounders off than what will we have left? Cause i know some trigger happy houndsman in my area that try to make a name for themselves and kill everything they tree and the quota closes in a month!

You region one fellas ought to come over to region four. All this talk of treeing 25 to 30 lions in a season!!! Over here you won't find that many tracks to run in a season, unless you don't work and spend about 500.00 in gas a week. I for one has a job and don't have a unlimited gas fund
Went nine days over a two week span with good snow, making a 35 mile run on public and private land and didn't cut a lion track until the tenth day.
At 50.00 bucks a day thats 500.00 invested for some nice pictures.
And yet the fish cops are increasing the frickin quota!!!!!! and yes I cry like a deer hunter to the bios, but it is on deaf ears.

Pistol----- Dwayne has been hunting hard covering alot of ground with multiple houndmen helping including myself we have snowmachined alot of country still trying with no snow and yet to find even a track with high hopes....but have found the population is good with plenty of cats to run.

Huntfairchase....Im not really arguing about the toms being gone im just saying why would u want to open the quota back up and kill off all the sub adults off just cause it might bring back bigger toms! Doesn't make sence to me????

I to would rather have cats to run than only have a few big ones....I was just stating how much effort has been put into finding a big cat....I do not agree with the quota system...but also think there should be a shorter kill season with the permit system...then leaving the last months of season just for training

larry- quick question for ya. this last year were you or were you not guiding or running an outfitted business for mountain lions. i have a buddy who hunts not far from your operation and he had a great year for putting fur in the tree, even with poor snow conditons.


badlandscat - i know local houndsmen here hunting your so called country and taking a 150+ tom with no compition. you have also had a family member with a special permit in hand for 2 yrs in a row and never filled it. now dont get me wrong thats fine but not once did i ever see or run into you trying to fill that permit. i have a full time job as well, and when i head out i expect to pay $100 every night i go out to fill the truck and sled. i turned loose everyday i went out expcept for one day. so i will agree with the rest. I feel the big tom numbers are down but there plenty of cats to run. seems to me you got to be a little aggressive and get out of bed and you will find cat tracks.

wrbutler wrote:larry- quick question for ya. this last year were you or were you not guiding or running an outfitted business for mountain lions. i have a buddy who hunts not far from your operation and he had a great year for putting fur in the tree, even with poor snow conditons.


badlandscat - i know local houndsmen here hunting your so called country and taking a 150+ tom with no compition. you have also had a family member with a special permit in hand for 2 yrs in a row and never filled it. now dont get me wrong thats fine but not once did i ever see or run into you trying to fill that permit. i have a full time job as well, and when i head out i expect to pay $100 every night i go out to fill the truck and sled. i turned loose everyday i went out expcept for one day. so i will agree with the rest. I feel the big tom numbers are down but there plenty of cats to run. seems to me you got to be a little aggressive and get out of bed and you will find cat tracks.

Not sure how my guiding is relevant to lion numbers when the guided hunts take place over 100 miles away from the areas I am concerned about. There were plenty of lions to run at my outfitters "operation", also, your buddy is not close to it, the only person that is close to it is another outfitter, and there were no problems finding lions to run when conditions allowed.
I know what you are getting at, but just because I guide, doesn't make me a hipocrite, we are very careful not to kill ourselves out of lions and don't guide hunters in low population or decreasing population areas, that would be stupid in many ways. I am done talking to you, I have kept this response polite and uninsulting in the hope that you will keep your mouth shut around me if our paths cross and steer clear, that will be best for everyone.

I still think the quota system works the best. If you keep a good harvest number like 8-12 lions. The reason I believe the quota system works so well is there is more competition so you get the objective fulfilled and you get a good harvest. When I say good harvest I mean a couple females, some small lions, and some real nice toms. The permit system has every thing messed up. When you get a high harvest on the big tom population the lion population booms and you have a shit ton of little dinkers. When you get a more rounded harvest then you have plenty of big boys to run and harvest for the future. I just think that alot of houndsmen are lazy and don't like competition.

BigBlues....You know whats going to happen when they go back to the quota system there going to up the quota a couple cats and yes hunters like u are going to kill all females and 80-100 pounders and than in 2 or 3 years ull be bitching again cause theres no big toms..or females...or anything! In hd 120 i remember a guy who killed a 85 pounder and he threw it in his tool box cause he was embarrassed to show people but his buddy had dogs and just wanted to kill all he could. Not saying this goes on everywere but in hd 120, 102 its perty bad.

@huntfairchase thanks for coming to my defense. @pistol when I read your post it initially pissed me off however you probably have the same opinion that I do that most guys that post on here are internet hunters. I bet I hunt harder than anybody else on this site. In the past 2 years under good conditions when I hunted for a 3 to 4 day stretch
a lot of times I wouldn't get more than 1 to 2 hours sleep a night. While spending up to 20 hours a day driving and snowmobiling. There are a lot of tracks that I didn't run however most days I turned loose on a track around 2 PM to just to run the dogs and also on the hope that dogs might jump a big cat while trailing a smaller one.

A lot of people on here will think I am crazy for stating the following: I have no problem with subadults being killed. The reason in NW MT we have a good lion population and this area has been logged heavily with a lot of access roads. In the last 15 years an average of about the same amount of cats have been killed year after year. During the quota years a lot of sub adults were killed during the kill season by people that just wanted a cat. Now these same people that just want a cat have to draw a permit and aren't happy with just a cat and want a big tom so they find some hound guy to tree a 110 to 120 lb. big cat that he says is 150 lb. and the cat gets shot. These same people would be just as happy with a 90 lb. sub, letting the 110 to 120 lb. toms get bigger.

I have also been concerned about the genetics, however what age does a tom attain his max size? I figure in unit 100 a lot of 2 to 3 year old toms are doing the breeding and they might still be carrying the genetics but might just be killed before they attain the max size.