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TRW wrote:Just a question for the avid cat hunters we all like a good hard round and round race till it climbs or gets stretched why don't you push them dogs to the next level and fox hunt at night I feel like if your caching fifty percent of what you run my hats of to ya! I personally like to cat hunt but fox hunting them dogs sure shows what they have in em after a few days. Good place to weed out a a few questions in a pack.

Hey Ted how's it been out east??Heard you were back,are you staying?Cool pup you sold Al.To answer your questions for me personally,I don't intentionally ever hunt at night anymore,just doesn't float my boat.My reservations on fox is this--better cathunters than I have switched back and fourth and most of them have all had coyote trouble or still do from time to time.My theory on this is,if it's not broke don't fix it.As far as seeing what's in them,I do this every winter when I hunt'em 7-9 days straight and they run 1 or 2 everyday along with all the typical up and down,trying to start cold tracks.In my opinion for dogs I'm critiquing/questioning[which is all of them/all of the time]if they're running them[to me this is jumped--guessing this is what you mean?]and they only catch 50%,I'm either starting over from scratch or picking what I hope the best one is and having a fire sale/elimination party.I personally fail to see how running a hot fox is going to show me something a hot cat race will not?? I put the question mark there because I really don't know,I have very limited experience with these except a few trips with some friends and their dogs--it was a hoot.We are starting to see more and more around here,dogs haven't showed much interest yet,probably won't as long as they keep seeing enough cat[and I keep discouraging].Fun topic,didn't mean to hi jack the original post--Dewey you did a good job putting it into words.

DEWEY.u say u dont encourage a young dog to tree.i understand that thats your methad but i have always been told to hype them up to the max to realy make them wont it.now when my 14 mnth male walker ripps dwn a hot coon track or what ever pops up with in a couple min, an he runs up the tree takes a good sniff then back down lookin for the rest of the track.how am i goin to train him that there is sumthn in the tree and i wont him to bark at it till i get there .now at first i didnt realy get him goin just patted him up good an let him chew on it. but if you do get there an hoop an holler with him he gets all crazy eyed trees pritty good.but cant pull it off on his own. fill me in ..chris

My point was why not see what they can do if catching a bob is so easy cause I know for a fact that greys at night put up a heck of a show and a broke dog is a broke dog. Just like a horse that won't buck. I think it's more of a pride thing.

Peepster..I think that Deweys theory holds true when there is an older dog there to show the ropes...Starting from scratch, I'm not sure if thats the best route to go..
I myself don't work young dogs on treeing, they figure it out just fine on their own (with a teacher).
Just be careful on how much tree work you do with a young dog, excessive training on tree may lead to slick treeing, treeing on dark spots in a tree and other unwanted problems.

I will try to answer a few of the question. Ted one of Roses grandparents is PLayboy. As far as starting young dogs on bobs without a older dog it can be done and I have done it. If you choose to go that way it can be the best for them but first go buy a lite weight pair of boots, get behind them in the snow and walk every track that they and the cat makes. You and the dogs will learn a lot about cats and hunting them. As far as encouraging them at a tree you may have to. I do every thing to keep a young dog calm on track or tree. To me a cat dog is a smart easy going dog if they are charging around running every or going crazy it is not the type of dog I look for. If you read books are talk to people most want a pup to really hustle around like they are hunting. I don't want that. It is like kid that can't stay focus. I don't want a dog running all over while roading for tracks. The best track dogs that I have will hardly get out of the way of the truck. The same at a tree I want a dog to set back look at the tree barking enough for me to find them even if they have been there for hours. Some of the dogs that get real excited at the tree will tree out in a few hours and leave. Ted I sold a started 18 month dog to some fellows in California last winter. They got her on a cat and she did great, but would not run fox with their dogs. It took a long time putting her on fox races and fox that they called in before she would even go on fox. Its all in how a dog is raised as to what it will do. Good hunting Dewey

Thanks Dewey.
Lots of food for thought there. I have walked my pups a lot also, thought it was good for both of us

Ya I get what your saying about all that but a kid starting out wants to catch some game and before you judge maybe you better come for a hunt with a few of us on the west side of the freeway I kinda get the feeling that you have forgotten most people don't have big bucks to get started. I may not be a cat hunter in your eyes but I will have to say we have a lot of good hunts together heck we run 15 pluses dog some times might even have a wreck but I will say one thing my buds and I can sit around and tell stories together and poke at one another with out any problems.

TRW wrote:My point was why not see what they can do if catching a bob is so easy cause I know for a fact that greys at night put up a heck of a show and a broke dog is a broke dog. Just like a horse that won't buck. I think it's more of a pride thing.

You might be right about pride in the dogs--it's hard work to start 1-3 pups a year and try to make everything work out.I didn't mean to try to sound like catching cat is easy everytime or if somebody doesn't have any experience,because it's an uphill battle and alot tobe learned.I hope I'm still learning when I quit[or I should have before this].But after starting 354 horses from scratch,I don't view a horse that won't buck[broad statement/most will at some point in their life,for one reason or another]as a trained or broke horse.Let me use this as an example,I've shown quite a few cuttin' horses and have made a dozen or so,but the ones on the top of their game when they were ready to be shown or finished I never took them to the roping pen as this contradicts all of our work on them being focused to hold a cow[ropeing is chasing].The straight reiners are just that and so are the cutters,but a reined cowhorse can be very good at both,but will never match either--reiner or cutter at the top competition level,they've been developed in all the fields but never concentrated on just one discipline and this shows up in performance matched against a single purpose horse.I've ridden with Buster Welch,Greg Ward,and a little with Bob Avila and they all differ in specialty and style but they all gave me the same advice when it came to having a horse be trained to it's max potential--only train it for that discipline if you want max results,I think this way on the dogs as well.Guys this is only my opinion,it's woked for me so far,I need to keep things simple for me!!!Good thread have enjoyed sharing it with you guys.

enough with the f-ing apologies for simply stating your experience/opinion. WTF is everyone's problem? Every houndsman acts so big and tough yet someone phrases something less then delicate and sensitive and people get their panties in a wad. This forum has taking petty to new levels and its beyond ri-damn-diculous. In a world where PC is taken to the extreme and to a nauseating level, you'd think a bunch of houndsman would have a little thicker skin.

You would won't you. Dewey

Tim Pittman wrote:

TRW wrote:My point was why not see what they can do if catching a bob is so easy cause I know for a fact that greys at night put up a heck of a show and a broke dog is a broke dog. Just like a horse that won't buck. I think it's more of a pride thing.

You might be right about pride in the dogs--it's hard work to start 1-3 pups a year and try to make everything work out.I didn't mean to try to sound like catching cat is easy everytime or if somebody doesn't have any experience,because it's an uphill battle and alot tobe learned.I hope I'm still learning when I quit[or I should have before this].But after starting 354 horses from scratch,I don't view a horse that won't buck[broad statement/most will at some point in their life,for one reason or another]as a trained or broke horse.Let me use this as an example,I've shown quite a few cuttin' horses and have made a dozen or so,but the ones on the top of their game when they were ready to be shown or finished I never took them to the roping pen as this contradicts all of our work on them being focused to hold a cow[ropeing is chasing].The straight reiners are just that and so are the cutters,but a reined cowhorse can be very good at both,but will never match either--reiner or cutter at the top competition level,they've been developed in all the fields but never concentrated on just one discipline and this shows up in performance matched against a single purpose horse.I've ridden with Buster Welch,Greg Ward,and a little with Bob Avila and they all differ in specialty and style but they all gave me the same advice when it came to having a horse be trained to it's max potential--only train it for that discipline if you want max results,I think this way on the dogs as well.Guys this is only my opinion,it's woked for me so far,I need to keep things simple for me!!!Good thread have enjoyed sharing it with you guys.

IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXPLAINED ANY BETTER!!!

So your saying breakaway roping messes up a team roping horse in other words Don't know about you but I stop a lot of cattle just to make it not such a race on a young horse. And your compairing oppisoits what the heck is the difference between going to a rodeo and having a barrel horse and a pole bending horse just about every gall in the US does both events on the same one seen plenty of barrel horses run the poles in highi teens. Are you saying I'm wrong for how I have worked dog this was intended for the younger gen that just wants to get involved but I will say this it would be damd had to learn any thing when a guy won't hunt with others some young guy ever wants to head out and see that there is more than one way to make dogs I have a truck headed out most of the winter. You guys might talk to these other young guys like fools but don't black ball every one with an opinion. You might just learn a little. And don't go telling me how your a famious trainer my dad trained as may horses and mules as any one in the country did it for sixty years you prob know of him.

no he is just saying that the ones that make it to the tip top of the hill do it by specializing in one thing. all the gals doing all of the events are competing for the small potatoes. the select few at the top do one thing and do it the BEST. it all comes down to what one is happy to spend their money to feed. everyone has a different measuring stick.

Ya you might be right but I will have to say this I started hunting with an old boy named Jimmy Jordan when I was just a kid that guy had some hounds not saying I hunt the bear but he showed me it was possible to to run a guiding outfit catch fifty pluss bear a year guide the cascades for lions catch what ever he needed for clients and then catch forty or fifty cats all on dry ground. Ya he had a few problems switching back to the cats but he was a houndsman and did it with style. Just saying there are other folks that had or have the knowledge to train animals and it's possible to do it with the same hounds.

I never claimed fame Ted,just lucky to get some help from top quality folks in horses and dogs.Never said your way was wrong YOU asked why not do something I responded with an answer.Poles and barrels similar,breakway and any type of roping envolves chasing[coming from behind to get along side of or short of that]and cutting is mirror image,move for move,stop turn back clean,wait patiently,never leave its line to go after the cow when it's going away from him.I used this comparison because to me it's apple and oranges not red apples versus green apples.MY whole point because I knew you came from a horse background was to illustrate why Some won't run their dog on any other game.And I don't advocate talking down to anybody,I try to write enough of explination when I write something in order attempt to get my idea in my head out clear enough,not to belittle or put anyone down.Surprised you were bothered by my answer to your question.Afetr seeing you posted back,I don't disargree it can be done with multi species hounds[in the winter]but anybody knows if them dogs run bear,lions,fox,coon,coyote,whatever else suits ones fancy,excluding january anf febuary even in the best cat habitat and best density to be found---it's a crap shoot especially for a new guy to WHAT HE'S GONNA RUN.I feel one species dogs are the easiest for new guy to handle and dummy's such as myself.