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perk wrote:Got an old hound now that is retired, but in the past 10 years he has jumped more game(mostly grey foxes) for me than any other 2 dogs ive combined ive hunted during that period. He may bark here, 250 yards later open agian, normally on the 3rd-4th bark he has game up and running. he knows how to 'drift' a cold track and start a peice of game. when you hunt the same area alot and try to leave game that holes or trees up the game becomes dog smart, sometimes its have a dog like this or trail for hours. he has jumped many peices of game being smart enough to cast infront of the trailing hounds. This to me is what is known as a jumpdog and can be just as useful as a good trail dog. Dont think its cheating when he is just smart/lucky enough to beat everything else to the jump. I love to hear dogs work a trail and appreciate it, but doubt many people on here would rather hear a trailing track all day/night as opposed to a boiling hot race. just my opinion.
Perk

Perk described it well in this post! Hunting here in south Texas through the hot dry sumner months the cats are going to win most of the time. Those that do win get dog wise in a hurry. When they hear the trailing dogs opening on track they are going to start moving out. So you better have a few of these jump dogs (that Perk descibed) in the pack if you want to have a chance of getting the job done!
Robbie

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South Texan wrote:[quote="

Perk described it well in this post! Hunting here in south Texas through the hot dry sumner months the cats are going to win most of the time. Those that do win get dog wise in a hurry. When they hear the trailing dogs opening on track they are going to start moving out. So you better have a few of these jump dogs (that Perk descibed) in the pack if you want to have a chance of getting the job done!
Robbie

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Thanks Robbie the hunter who most say has the best cat hounds in Texas, and says cats get dog wise. Al

Al, you are correct on that issue and to answer hudson, yes she has been this wy from the start have had a few with age learned to be tight mouthed as believe they learn this to keep in the game as they know they are slowing down and have found that if they are tighter mouthed makes for a quicker race. Andy

I much prefer a dog that gives too much tongue compared to too little. There is a term in the hound world called "hark". It means listen for both hound and hunter. Dogs that work as a pack hark to the dog with the front end of a track and then honor, whether it be hot or cold. This helps keep the pack as one unit, which to me ups the odds of a successful end. Silent dogs of any description deny the pack of participation (honoring) and contribution to the final catch or tree. Whether a dog learns this or comes by it naturally, it is to me, a poor hound quality. Yes some dogs give voice too much and maybe it helps the quarry, but maybe not. Excessively open dogs definitely have a harder time harking.
My opinion on dogs that learn this trait is not to help them catch, but rather to elude and leave the other dogs in the pack behind. The reason I think this is I've had a few dogs that, while on a track that if they knew I was on the road waiting for them to hopefully catch them, they would go silent, cross the road giving me the slip and once they were a substatial distance off the road would continue barking. I could definitely see an independent dog pulling this same trick on it's fellow pack members.
In a perfect world I like a dog that opens right, letting everone know the condition of the track and where it's going, not too much, and not too little. That, to me is opening honestly in true hound form.

For sure there is more than one way to catch a cat. To me the trailing nose problem happens when a hounds feet can't keep up with his mouth. Coming off my tailgate, your legs better back up what your mouth is putting out. That being said, I kinda like to hear the storm. Its like a strike, some low crackling, then the more serious harking, thanks for the word Cobalt. The mid-trailing part is probably where the "useful noise only" makes more sense. The jump... and... Ain't nothing like the thunder of a pack of deep bawlers coming up the canyon. When my pack is at full cry, the thunder is coming. Lightning is gonna strike your ass if you don't get up a tree. Fear of death motivates. I guess what I'm trying to say is for sure the proof is in the fur shed, however, we could all just trap if it was only about fur. I just don't want hounding to become a silent GPS/hike/shoot. I don't know how many walks to the tree I have left. One thing I will always have is my ability to dream in noise. How many of you can do this? I have dreams that are not visual but sonic, the hunt story or image painted with mountain music of hounds and surrounded gnarling prey. I don't know, am I missing something? Should I get me a couple of them Ninja dogs?

This is about my 3rd attemp at replying to this topic. I myself dislike a super mouthy hound, I always have. If I have done my home work and know my dogs the way we are all suppossed to, I dont need or even want to hear every step of the race. The catch dog in me" gets off on silent portions of the race" places where dogs are trying to close the distance or catch the cat off guard, dogs that can hold their mouth together while closing on a track is what bobcat hunting is all about for me. I dont need to hear them open at all points of the race to know their working a cat and giving me their all. I have always hunted like this well before tri-tronics or garmin.

Once a track is up and moving, reading the race is most enjoyable for me. Its hard to put to words for me. All I can offer is a seat, come ride along for a day or 2 and see for yourself. John.

Thanks Robbie the hunter who most say has the best cat hounds in Texas, and says cats get dog wise. Al[/quote]

Thanks Mr Al but just want you to know "I" sure never made the claim as to having the best cat dogs in Texas. I know of a few here that I would probably trade packs with if they would trade. I sold a really good dog into Mexico a few years ago and still trying to recover from it. One exceptional dog in a pack can sure make the rest of them look good! So.....I'm doing lots of hunting & training right now trying to come up with another SPECIAL dog but they sure don't come along very often.

Also want you to know I have sure educated my share of cats in the woods and yes they can get dog wise in a hurry. It amazes me how fast a green cat (never been dogged) can pick up on things he does to throw a dog.

Last year on BGH someone made a post on here as to what % do you catch. I marked the lowest percentage posted but to be honest my percentage is a lot lower than that. This percentage can sure very depending on what time of the year it is (summer or winter) and also if we are getting a little rain or in the middle of a drought, like we are right now (measured 3.8 inches of rain in the last 7 months here on the ranch.)

Only claim I can really make is that I am blessed enough to get to hunt as much as I do! Which is more than most cat hunters here.
Robbie

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Colbalt, isnt the trailing dog supposed to pick up his/her head and honorthe dog that went out and jumped the game infront of them? i agree with dogs harking to pack members or peoples voices. I will not keep a dog that does not hark to another dog or my voice, However i do not see how a dog who is silent when he cold trails affects this action. He jumps the game, holds the track, and calls for help. If i dog gives no mouth at all then in my opinion he is worthless to me, but the post seemed to be about dogs who trail silent, not run silent. if a jump dog jumps him 5 yards infront the trail dogs or 500yards in front there should be others honoring him. i hate dogs that are smart enough to swing around you at the road when you wanna catch them too, thank goodness for tri tronics, can solve that issue. Just my opinion.

Warner5 wrote:This is about my 3rd attemp at replying to this topic. I myself dislike a super mouthy hound, I always have. If I have done my home work and know my dogs the way we are all suppossed to, I dont need or even want to hear every step of the race. The catch dog in me" gets off on silent portions of the race" places where dogs are trying to close the distance or catch the cat off guard, dogs that can hold their mouth together while closing on a track is what bobcat hunting is all about for me. I dont need to hear them open at all points of the race to know their working a cat and giving me their all. I have always hunted like this well before tri-tronics or garmin.

Once a track is up and moving, reading the race is most enjoyable for me. Its hard to put to words for me. All I can offer is a seat, come ride along for a day or 2 and see for yourself. John.

John x2 on your post very well said. Andy

When running more open hounds, I have found feeder tracks during really good scenting conditions that sounded like a damn good cat race. The problem was we never really moved a cat or even pressured him. The open dogs would hold my casting dogs in tighter, never letting them cast out to find the cat like I needed them too.

Other problems also come of it, a hard hunting dog will learn to ignore a mouthy dog. Silently casting out and finding the track. The silent dog usually gets the blame for sneeking off, truth be known the open dog was in its own world happy to have scent to open on. Odds are it wouldnt have heard the casting dog jump the cat anyway because it was to busy listening to itself.

I can go on all day long, I dont want my dogs opening on just cat scent. I want them to open on the cat ahead of them. This is a good topic, and I have probably spent better than 10 years thinking and applying this to my dogs. You guys that are getting ruffled up. Remember we are talking bobcat dogs, not bear or cougar dogs. Just bobcat dogs. John.

It's key to have a silent trail dog where I hunt . To many rich community's . I do think it catches more game silent . But I love to here a good dog cold trail .

cobalt wrote:I much prefer a dog that gives too much tongue compared to too little. There is a term in the hound world called "hark". It means listen for both hound and hunter. Dogs that work as a pack hark to the dog with the front end of a track and then honor, whether it be hot or cold. This helps keep the pack as one unit, which to me ups the odds of a successful end. Silent dogs of any description deny the pack of participation (honoring) and contribution to the final catch or tree. Whether a dog learns this or comes by it naturally, it is to me, a poor hound quality. Yes some dogs give voice too much and maybe it helps the quarry, but maybe not. Excessively open dogs definitely have a harder time harking.
My opinion on dogs that learn this trait is not to help them catch, but rather to elude and leave the other dogs in the pack behind. The reason I think this is I've had a few dogs that, while on a track that if they knew I was on the road waiting for them to hopefully catch them, they would go silent, cross the road giving me the slip and once they were a substatial distance off the road would continue barking. I could definitely see an independent dog pulling this same trick on it's fellow pack members.
In a perfect world I like a dog that opens right, letting everone know the condition of the track and where it's going, not too much, and not too little. That, to me is opening honestly in true hound form.

My thoughts exactly Al

Jon me and u think the same . And breed for it. Folks we are talking in our area , no snow dogs here. This is bare ground tracks that may not be very old. I do know my dogs cold trail . Here is an example . I took my dogs to work with me . It was around 6 am when I got off the high and almost to the job. I was cleaning them out before I went to work. I could tell they could run this track by the way they were acting in there manner. I called them and loaded them up and went to work. After work I went to town and got some food and went back up there . I hunted a road that was below the road I was cleaning them out on that morning . THIS IS 12 HOURS LATER. T he dogs rigged the track took it up the hill to the other road and trailed down that road the same place that morning . I loaded them up knowing my chances would be slim to none of catching that cat. The dogs never opened the time they were trailing . Im glad they didn't. sounds like some on here would have liked them to. A cat race to me tells a story. if that story is full of babble bullshit then I don't want to here it. jmho. to each there own . I know what I like and u guys know what u like. Bring them babble mouth dogs over here and run one of these educated cats and u will never keep it jumped. u will turn a jump into a cold trail . and after that u will never jump it again. That's just what I think , not saying im right.

jc

[quote="coastrangecathunting"

In this area a babble mouth hound or one that gives a lot of mouth will catch a few uneducated cats but thats it as the cats will make a break for the rocks or cedars and your odd go down. I like to hear a hound on the track open sparingly on a cold track and as it warms up then start to turn up the barking. What I have seen in the babble mouth dogs is they tend to hang up to much on a track for my likings. A lot seem to like to hear hounds make some music on a cold track I would sure rather hear them taring up on a jumped race and hear the music at the tree any day. Jmo Andy