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dwalton wrote: As said it is hard to get them thinking bobcats after running bear all summer without snow. I had a old timer 35 years ago tell me[ anytime you bounce back and forth from one game to the next you are giving them permission to run trash]. AS the years go by I thing he was totally right. When you which each fall watch and see if you don;t have more trouble with off game. Have a good Thanks Giving Dewey

I just don't find that to be true a least not in all dogs. I hunt all year long , And I'm not saying my dogs walk on water. But to say a dog that hunts all year long would trash more then a dog keep out of the woods cause you season of choice is not open is just another old wise tell in my book. And as far as the switching game I can tree a bear in the morning and tree a bob later that day the same as they do when the bear are asleep and have only been running varmit for months. Trashy Dogs come from poor breeding and bad handling Not from running more then one kind of game.

Jeff

When you talk about a dog trashing or not...Are you rigging 100% of your tracks from a quad or truck or roading? If I roaded my dogs, I would never know the difference and that trash was ever present...To me their is something about moving out fast on the rig deck and the ability of a dog to decipher scent quickly enough to not open on the odd off track...I don't have issues with running trash, as I reference it....Here is what I think....Dogs battle ship mouth just over loaded it's pea brain....

I dismiss it as competition when you have four or five dogs competing for the first bark. I watched some top houndsmen in our region that would only rig one hound off the deck and never had open sides for the dog to possibly rig from under the box with it's head sticking out for this reason.... Here in our region it is damp during the fall and winter months giving the hound a better advantage to full bore scent floating in the atmosphere... If I ran off game, I would quit doing this type of hunting but have done so since in High School coon hunting for hides back in the day...

We rigged before we understood free casting or roading a hound to start tracks. The only thing we did differently then vs. now? We mainly relied on snow for bobcat and lions and struck bear by day and coon by night and never messed with Gray Fox. Looking back? I sure messed up and could have treed a pile more game than I did if I only removed my blinders and tried!

I'm sure I owned some bad bred hounds but not all have been bred the same....Breed or strain of hound makes no difference in my area. To me it is just a fact of Rigging out west while switch hitting all tree game and just the reason for asking for the opinions of others in different States or regions to weigh in and comment! Thanks for doing so Jeff!

Take care!

Mike

Mike, I road or free cast my dogs most of the time, Only time I rig is if the area I'm hunting has a lot of other hunters or motorcycle riders in it or is new to me and I'm trying to find the game. Now don't get me wrong on the poor breed thing in no way am I saying that if a dog trashes one in a blue moon it is poorly breed or is handled badly. As I said before my dogs don't walk on water, But to say that a dog that is allowed to run more then one type of game is going to be trashier then one that is only ran on one is just BS in my book. Dogs are a lot smarter then most think. Nor do I think it takes a better dog to run multiple game or just one kind of game , But that it just takes the right kind of dog.

Most of my cat hunting occurs in NW Montana in the winter. Temperature only occasionally goes above 40 during those months, most of them time it is below freezing, so my striking is limited to an occasional lion if the dogs have there heads out. Later in the season in the spring the weather becomes more moderate where you can strike. I know exactly what Mike is talking about and agree with him on the off game striking / competion issue. I occasionally have struck in the spring and have had a hell of race of an unknown species. Your imagination can go anywhere in what you may have been running. If you switch between various tree games and are constantly pushing the envelope in hunting in dismal hunting conditions with track driven dogs, you will have more trash issues in my opinion.

Mike , What your saying is your dogs are bumping trash from the rig but not running it Right ? If that is so I have had dogs in the past that would strike from the rig but not be willing to get off. I think me and you have to different tracks going here, I'm just saying that because a guy is willing to run more then one species of game is no excuse for a dog to be trashy. I do understand the O I smelled something bark.

JEFF: I would say that you are a knowledgeable hunter know what your dogs are doing. One question do you trash break your dogs? If so how do you do it? My dogs aren't broke from trash as most of the people consider trash breaking. I very seldom shock a dog or have to shock a dog for trash running. By only running one animal it is not needed. They just learn to run only bobs. When I ran bear, lion, coon and bobcats I sure had a lot of deer and coyote races until I got the broke. Just the way I see it for me that's no BS. Hope you had a good Thanks Giving Dewey

Dogs that are allowed to run more than one species in my experience, did not need snow to get them running bobcat, they just ran the first desired track they came across. However in those days we houndsmen controlled the bear population, seldom ran a bear in the winter, something I believe houndsmen need to be allowed to do in this area, too many problem bear. True it can be harder to be certain what species they are working, but most of the time I guessed correct, but with any hunter I ever hunted with there were times when we guessed wrong. I agree to a degree it is easier to have clean dogs when running only one species, however have owned & hunted with others dogs that was very reliable to start a cat coon or bear. Most of the time we did not care which one they ran, just enjoyed hunting, the most care free days of my hunting career. An example of dogs trying other species is starting running grey fox & having to rebreak dogs off coyote, however with the tools hunters have now days that is not a big deal, if one gets right on it. Just what I experienced. Al

I run bear, bobcat and coyotes with all my dogs. I try to keep a couple strictly for cats (in the winter) but if there's a week where cats are scarce, I may turn them out on a coyote. Do they bump a coyote while cold tracking a cat? Sure, but not very often...might get a little scolding but what are you going to do..Coon are off limits due to several coon coming into bear baits. Never say never but I have no problem with coon. Still get maybe 1 or 2 coyote races in the summer during bear season bumping a hot yote on a bear cold track. Wouldn't own a dog that goes off a hot track onto an undesired track. I have deer feeding on apple trees within 10 yards of the dogs so I think their used to deer and don't try to trail them. Knock on wood but I haven't had to break a dog off deer in a long time. Biggest thing is to keep young dogs in good company. A couple of bad races with bad company can ruin a young dog in a hurry.
My feelings are, a dog goes through their biggest learning curve from 6 months old to a year, maybe a year and a half. If they miss that curve due to no season to run, it puts them at a big disadvantage..

Jeff Eberle wrote:Mike , What your saying is your dogs are bumping trash from the rig but not running it Right ? If that is so I have had dogs in the past that would strike from the rig but not be willing to get off. I think me and you have to different tracks going here, I'm just saying that because a guy is willing to run more then one species of game is no excuse for a dog to be trashy. I do understand the O I smelled something bark.

Jeff

I don't have trash running issues, never have trash running issues because I stay on top of my dogs and refuse to waste my time while hunting, when the situation arises? I handle it as it occurs and quit hunting until my problem has been corrected...Can you imagine going to another State or Province and dogs run trash? Neither can I...I find my dogs are compelled to hit the odd Coyote track driven by fierce competition for the front end, I break my dogs off deer and elk physically with an ecollar that ends quickly, done so as the dog is a little older unless it breaks and that seldom happens so no need to break a hound until it gets lots of game under the belt... and like stated by Dewey, I must physically break my hounds because I do switch hit....

Last night I had one coon strike that ended at a tree and two cat strikes that ended at a tree and one coyote rig than ended at the base of my tailgate and back up on the rig deck, the odd coyote rig and check is as bad as it gets.....I watch my friends who strictly run nothing but bobcats and they never break their young dogs...They just become accustom to no cat no bark and all they understand is bobcats...Hard to believe a hound can figure all this out but if you keep it one species? I find it makes keeping the dog focused much easier. I enjoy the challenge and get bored if no crisis mode deployment is needed. Life is too short to not hunt as you wish...

I just think by now my pattern is what I can expect from switch hitting my hounds as it hasn't changed much over the last forty years except adding the gray fox to my list...I think this actually has upped my coyote rig strikes more than in the past. You watch a dog and how it acts when it hits the ground, squatting to pee or various actions quickly give away a hound who just chirped on a coyote, many just dismiss it for a cat scrape or piss post and continue onward where I call bs on the hound and log it in the memory bank as an incomplete dog that needs some tuning. From this point you simply must understand how different scents make each hound respond as some like one species more than others and the ability to know and read this is the most critical part of catching game. You can't catch it if you can't start it....

Mike

al baldwin wrote: An example of dogs trying other species is starting running grey fox & having to rebreak dogs off coyote, however with the tools hunters have now days that is not a big deal, if one gets right on it. Just what I experienced. Al

Al

We doubled. I was typing and so were you...I read your post and chuckled about your Gray Fox analogy and rebreaking dogs off coyotes...

I concur!

Mike

I have to physically break all my dogs off trash. I never ran a dog that I didn't have to break. I train all my dogs to come off the tree and follow me to the road without leashes, in the winter if you have a mile walk back to the truck or sled through wintering grounds that can lead to young dogs jumping & running trash. I am to stubborn to leash pups to keep that from happening and just deal with the trash breaking issue.

dwalton wrote:JEFF: I would say that you are a knowledgeable hunter know what your dogs are doing. One question do you trash break your dogs? If so how do you do it? My dogs aren't broke from trash as most of the people consider trash breaking. I very seldom shock a dog or have to shock a dog for trash running. By only running one animal it is not needed. They just learn to run only bobs. When I ran bear, lion, coon and bobcats I sure had a lot of deer and coyote races until I got the broke. Just the way I see it for me that's no BS. Hope you had a good Thanks Giving Dewey

Dewey, I focus a little harder on young dogs from the time they are pups then most do. And do very little trash breaking if any because of the foundation I have under them. And thanks I did have a great Thanks Giving and hope your was as well. Jeff

[quote="mike martell"][/quote]

Jeff

I don't have trash running issues, never have trash running issues because I stay on top of my dogs and refuse to waste my time while hunting,


If this is the case I don't understand are debate. My statement was just because a dog is ran on more then one species does not make a dog trashy

I'm very curious about this "no trash breaking" thing. For those that never have to trash break a dog, what do you do when a young dog breaks out of a race to run off game? When you are trailing a cat with a finished dog and you put a pup with them and the old dog trees the cat and the pup is off on its own adventure, what do you do? Does this not happen to you guys? Personally, I don't like a hound that switches tracks at all. Even if I am hunting a switch hitting dog and put them on a cat, I don't want to see a bear in a tree. Start a track, finish a track but pups are pups and most gamey pups I've owned wanted to chase stuff and a hot, smelly trash track was easier and more fun than a cat track at times until they were corrected and learned that trash hurts. I've worked pups that just seemed to naturally stay with the old dogs and follow along but a high percentage of the ones that ended up turning into lead dogs seem to have the desire to get out front and weren't content following along so, when they were pups, they ran junk. They did seem to learn faster which, to me, explains a little of why they ended up being better dogs in the end but they still trashed as pups. I've spent years hunting dogs that only ran bobcat and I've also spent years switch hitting dogs and I never had more or less issues with trash either way. In fact, when I'm looking at pups for a bobcat rig dog, I like to find the one that strikes every single thing they smell and then tune them in to what I want them to strike with the help of old dogs and/or snow. I do the same whether I want the dog to strike only bobcat or if I want them to strike bear, lion, and bobcat. I just break them off what I don't want them to bark at. For the most part, I have always ended up with dogs similar to what has been described before. If they get excited, they may bump a yote(or whatever it is) but they check themselves immediately.

I run strictly Varmints and haven't had to trash break dogs that were started on Varmints. I brought back two dogs from West Virginia one was ran on Bear and coon, while the other was just ran on Coon. Them dogs I did have some breaking to do Bear's they just weaned them self's off them and coon's now I might put one up a year that tree's right off the road. Guy I hunt with doesn't break his dogs off anything he just puts them on Varmints also but what I have noticed and maybe Dewey can fill in, it to me seem's easier (this is directed towards Jcats statement about pups leaving a track for another) keeping the pup's straight when there ran with there mothers and other siblings they seem to want to be close to the mom at all times JMO. Where as the pups that were brought in later had more of a tendency to leave a track for a hot deer. All my dogs are kept inside they share bone's and eat and drink out of the same bowl's with zero issue's. I think this helps with the dogs working together and not having dogs stray off on trash cause they want to be together. I think I would have a tuff time switch hitting my dogs so its fascinating to me the guy's who do and have great dogs...