BigGameHoundsmen.com

It is exciting to me that Bryce started this conversation because it has long been something I have wondered about.

Especially in the world of bobcat dogs, I know of top hunters who have to start thinking about a replacement at age 7. Not that the dog can't hunt any more, but has lost the keen edge required for that particular game.

And as has been pointed out, it is hard to have a dog finished before 3 and one top bobcat hunter/ breeder said age 4. And as Mike pointed out some dogs start much later than others, so you loose those months.

Whatever the particulars, the cost in blood sweat and tears; and in dollars, time and relationships is so high, in finishing a good dog. It always grieved me how few years a person gets to use the dog, and the dog gets to enjoy doing what it was born for.

If I was the coach of a breeding team I would say: "ok, for the next twenty years, the number one hunting trait we are breeding for is that the dog be alive. The dead ones won't hunt. Doesn't matter how fast or cold they carried a track, how well they located and treed, how they handled or any other trait we strive for. When they are dead, none of those traits matter. So number one trait we are breeding for is a long, healthy, vibrant life well into the years formerly reserved for old age, retirement, or death."

So you can see, in my way of thinking this May be the most important thread I ever saw on here. I hope you are successful in getting everyone thinking about it and making plans to explore for and breed toward the fountain of canine youth.

david wrote:So you can see, in my way of thinking this May be the most important thread I ever saw on here. I hope you are successful in getting everyone thinking about it and making plans to explore for and breed toward the fountain of canine youth.

Maybe we already have, if dog years are 7-1 over that of humans and we are still hunting a 10 year old hound at fairly peak performance, that hound would be 70 years old...

Once in awhile we see a 70 year old marathon runner, but not often...My point was missed earlier on the three years old hound and culling...By the time a hound is 16 months, it should be well on it's way to being a rock star and you are seeing enough to convince you waiting until the hound is three or four to finish out completely, I could live with, but when you are a zero and not much output is where I draw the line...You can finish out a hound that shows continued promise but when they are just along for the ride is where the line is drawn in my kennels simply for the reason we are currently discussing....

Mike

I heard your point about the importance of early starting dogs. And I agree for a lot of reasons, including some you did not mention. You an I both have had dogs tha could look like super stars and tree their own game at six or seven months. I love that, most people love it, and there is a ton of emphasis just naturally placed on breeding early starting dogs.

But this is the first thread I have seen on breeding for longevity. Dog years mean nothing to me since I live in human years. I sure would like to see dogs live longer and healthier. Already on this thread are examples in the canine world Of what does exist, and is therefore a hint at hope for doing better than we have done.

Chris, That's cool stuff. I know guys who think the size of the hound dictates toughness, seems to me the size of the heart is much more important. I have never hunted that southern desert country, but I sure would like to in the future.

Mike, Thanks, I know I plan to do it. Id like to get some extra years on what I have. There are just so many other important qualities to consider it makes it tough! I guess that's why there aren't great hounds in every kennel!

Mark, why don't you think we could improve on it? On one side of my family they drink, and smoke, and cause trouble and do dangerous things their whole lives, and the parents lived into their 90s and so did all the kids. (My great aunts and uncles) My grandpa is 78 and still works 8-10 hour days in the heat. He has had stomach cancer and a heart attack but is healthy and still crankin. On the other side of my family, my great uncles and great great grandparents all died in their 70s. My grandpa on that side is 71 and healthy but looks dramatically older then he did last year. I can't see him living much longer then his older deceased siblings who didn't exit their mid 70s. This side of the family lived much healthier lives. They were hard workers, but no drinking or smoking or trouble. And neither side of the family had genetic diseases or obesity problems. Those have to be genetic differences? Why can't over a couple of generations the longevity of our hounds be improved by being mindful of that while breeding. (if we are fortunate enough to have access to hounds that have that as well as all of the other important qualities we are looking for) Chris and Cassandra seem to have strains that are older then mine. Of course we would have to use our brain and decide that this single dog might be alive longer because he has great health care, a great diet, and a healthy amount of exercise and happiness though his entire life. Or this other hound died early because he lacked some of those positive environmental factors, or was exposed to more negative ones. I know you don't know me, but I am a respectful guy. I am just asking questions because I certainly have never tried it, and have hunches based off of observations, but I can't prove it in my hounds.

Well with the seven to one formula that means some dogs are hitting a 140 yrs or more. Either way you figure it there's room for improvement but its the ultimate breeding challenge in my mind. First thing is overall genetic and physical health. Then you get down to watching them age. Most guys are to old before they develop that kind of patience to really impact very many generations. Its easier for younger guys to focus on earlier starting pups. But truthfully just how early can you start pups on biggame? I know mine want in on it long before they're big or mature enough in my eyes.

I think if people were being more mindful of the health of their dogs and some of the hereditary diseases and conditions that are passed around, we would get to where you are aiming for. But like I said, many, many dogs either die from accident or are culled before these things surface. And a LOT more of them are bred before they show up, at that point its an afterthought. I know of one line that is known for heart conditions. The person knows this, but continues breeding them. Inbreeding them at that. The only picture they see is percentage of dogs that catch. But within another generation or two, they will find themselves backed in a corner when all their dogs have died by the age of 4 from congestive heart failure.... A lot of houndsmen also don't get to the bottom of why old Blue fell over dead at 7. Or why he's been crippled up since he was 5. Most just chalk it up to Lymes or heartworm, or arthritis. My favorite is "must've turned a gut" (which is heritable) When in fact they have bad hearts, bad hips, or some other congenital disorder. I have seen tons of thyroid disease, epilepsy, bad hips, bad hearts, demodectic mange, hernias, cherry eye, entropion, bloat and cryptorchidism in hounds - most the owners and breeders completely oblivious to it.

Now that made me laugh! The idea a dog with a turned gut running . point well made. But not all houndsmen are totally ignorant. Most of us are just borderline. But I agree anything genetic needs to be removed. I know I'm often guilty of pushing dogs to far sometimes. Sometimes its lack of replacements and once in awhile I just need to know where they start to need rest. If your hounds need a break in 3-4 days . packing into hunt a week makes little sense unless you take two packs .

this may sound cold,but if your dogs are dying at 8 or nine they are naturally making room at just the right time based on a performance stand point for the average a hound slows down ,and loses its edge necessary for peak performance on hard running game.i know there are gonna be exceptions,and exceptional dogs,but im talking the average.if your young dogs not puppys arent outperforming your 8 plus year olds you either have an exceptional older dog or need to take a good look at your young dogs,and how the future looks.now speaking from the heart i sure miss some of my old hounds that lived to be 14 plus even though it was really heartbreaking watching them struggle to the end.ive seen quite a few dogs killed with kindness being overfed ,and underexercised house pets.i agree totally with pegleg that a dog lives longer if it is worked compared to that.

I have hunted mostly grade dogs for over 50 years and the good ones rarely make it to old age.You've probably heard it said that you could road a sorry dog down the freeway and it would come out without a scratch .That seems to be true.The oldest i've had one of mine live was a female that made it to 14 years and 2 weeks old.I knew her birthday so that's not a guess.My old Ranger dog was still catching cat at 11 years old but on one race he would look like his old self and on the next one he would run out of gas then the next one he looked like he was still in his prime .That was his last productive year.For my dogs and others i've seen their tenth year seems to be the end of their hunting career.I've seen some that went out earlier but haven't seen any that lasted much longer.I believe our hounds health and longevity could be improved on but it would almost certainly be in really small steps .

I'm with others on this. It's rare to have productive game catchers into their later years. I am pumped to get 8-9 good years out of a dog. When a good dog turns the page on 8 I figure it's all bonus hunts from here on out. With all the bad stuff that could happen it's amazing some make it that long. I make sure to scratch old spot's ears a little more after a good hunt when that muzzle starts getting gray.

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I should add that those old dogs can still be invaluable in the right situations. They just can't carry the entire load anymore. But use them in spots and they can still add to the pack. I love an old straight open cold trailer when starting pups.

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Nolte wrote:I should add that those old dogs can still be invaluable in the right situations. They just can't carry the entire load anymore. But use them in spots and they can still add to the pack. I love an old straight open cold trailer when starting pups.

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Times Two! Al

Guys I guess I will have to tell Bonaparte who just turned 11 or his littermate Josie or my little Chester dog who just turned 10 that they are all done and can't carry the load anymore. Because someone forgot to tell them that. These hounds all can catch their own lion. Bonaparte at the age of 9 helped trail and catch a Tom after 2-days of trailing and over 16-miles no water except at the truck and two hot late spring days. I have had several times that 10 plus hounds have been the star of the hunt. And not just with my hounds but with several other packs.

I don't doubt that Chris. I was just stating what i've seen in my hunting career on the west coast ,chasing bobcats .