BigGameHoundsmen.com

mike martell wrote:I agree Al, those cats that run tight circles then line out are more easily caught...I hunted many years ago with a nice young bobcat savvy little hound that after a bobcat circled a half acre patched, left out after circling a dozen or so times, My little female left with the bobcat on the last circle while another guys hound just kept circling, I mention his dog was hung up and the cat had left...He was mad as hell until my female treed the bobcat and he ended up waiting for the track to fiz out...

I believe that happens more than most like to admit. In the following race that kinda happened
Race #8 (best race of all) Ran an 18 lb. female with a friend, I turned loose Ranger and he turned a dog loose. They cold trailed it 3 miles, was a tough cold trail, friend's dog got throwed out. Ranger jumped it 300 yards above the road, smoked it down across the road, friend packed in 2 more dogs. Was a tight running road runner. Hit the the road the 4th time (Ranger was 20' behind) right in front of the truck ran down the road doubled back ran back into the dogs, dogs lost it. After a lot of screwing around i finally injected June. Friend's 2 dogs finally got it out of the mess. Line drove it a mile down the creek and treed it.
My Dog in that hangup wasn't doing a lot of barking. My friend's 2 dogs were doing a lot of barking running back and forth, my friend thought the bobcat was right there running back and forth but I didn't agree. I thought it was more likely that it was treed and not located yet. My friend's dogs actually found the exit track and my dogs packed right in. That bobcat had just run back right through the dogs and had never pulled any tricks.

I am not however discounting any of your guys stories about tight runners, I have talked with other Montana Hound guys that have actually seen a bobcat pull off stuff like that in front of the dogs.

By far most of my races have been snow races but the few bare ground bobcat & Lynx races I had I always thought it seemed they were easier to catch on bare ground than in snow. This is all referring to Montana cats. Another thing to keep in mind a have never heard of a Montana running bobcat ever get caught on the ground. In places I hunt we just don't have the population of cats that the West Coast has. So for me the biggest challenge in catching a bobcat is getting the track moved to the jump.

What kind of dog is Ranger?

I have two questions for you to ponder with me:

1) Do you think Ranger can run faster than a bobcat?

2) If so, at less than 7 yards from the cat, why did Ranger not close the gap. ?

If not, how did he get so close to the cat?

These are the same questions I have pondered for years. I have my theories. What are yours. ?

.Forgot to mention how much I appreciate it when people like you take the great amount of time to write out hunting stories in detail. It is entertaining and instructional. Did I mention fun to read?

Thank you.

As Mike said cats do what cats do. Bobcats run circles ,dodge and hit rocks and bluffs naturally. They all so learn to run roads, go to bluffs ect if they are ran with dogs that are not cat dogs and time a cat gets away he,she will do the same thing to get away again. If you are getting a lot of dodging or looses that the dogs are coming down their back track them taking it out of there your dogs are over running the track. Sometimes the same happens with a dodger your dogs are running to wide. It does not take a fast dogs to tree a bobcat but one that runs close to the track and makes no looses. Over loading a track with dogs that over run or over bark or barking off track will cause a lot less bobs caught and much harder to locate the tree. I run 8 to 10 dogs most of the time but they have to be bobcat dogs to do as good as they do. Most bobcats are lost at the tree with most dogs, bobcats are just not hard to tree but almost impossible for some dogs. Watch the videos of the rabbits dogs run you can learn a lot about how dogs run tracks at a pack. For me the things that I will not have is one that barks off track and barks down a back track. Just one opinion back by a few thousand cat races with a few hundred dogs raised. The best bobcat dogs are ran a lot on adverse condition, bare dry ground. Did I mention that most of the top hound men that I have know become bobcat hunters when they grow up. Have fun even if you run trash like bear and lion. Dewey

david wrote:What kind of dog is Ranger?

I have two questions for you to ponder with me:

1) Do you think Ranger can run faster than a bobcat?

2) If so, at less than 7 yards from the cat, why did Ranger not close the gap. ?

If not, how did he get so close to the cat?

These are the same questions I have pondered for years. I have my theories. What are yours. ?

Ranger is half Loose Bruce Walker & half Hammer bluetick.

No I don't think he can run faster than a bobcat otherwise I would not have straight line mile jump races. I do think a lot of the races a bobcat climbs within sight of my dogs. Ranger is also my loudest dog, so a bobcat should have no problem realizing where he is at.

He is my fastest dog, loose cold trailer, drifts jumped tracks widely, & a good locator. He is also one of my 2 top bear dogs.

My dogs are really not that fast compared to other dogs. I go to field trials and hardly ever win anything. My dogs all get there ass kicked big time in field trials. However running my dogs with field trial winners I lead virtually all the time. I think my lack in actual speed is compensated by track smartness.

david wrote:.Forgot to mention how much I appreciate it when people like you take the great amount of time to write out hunting stories in detail. It is entertaining and instructional. Did I mention fun to read?

Thank you.

David, the reason I took the time to write this is because I think a lot of hunters get tunnel vision, thinking bobcats all run similar. The point I was trying to get across was that in Montana with the right dogs you can force bobcats to straight run and not run tight. I do not really think that I have such special dogs, I figure I would be sucking hind tit if I would run with a lot of you guys in brushy country.

dhostetler wrote:
David, the reason I took the time to write this is because I think a lot of hunters get tunnel vision, thinking bobcats all run similar.

Actually, I think we all have tunnel vision of one degree or another. All we can do is try to make our tunnel a little wider.

Thanks again for the stories.

Either you keep a journal or you have a powerful memory. Impressive, in either case.

Thanks dhostetler for the pictures & hunt details. Al

Been interesting following this and the classifieds thread, thanks all for sharing. This is just my interpretation of my experiences the last few years. Have caught 3 bobcats on ground in western MT. 2 the dogs stretched, 1 kicked the snot out of the 2 dogs I had on it and treed when it saw me. The 2 were out of kill season so I turned them in to F&G and asked if they'd ever seen that thinking I and my dogs was really something. 3 wardens told me they see it enough not to question a fella and appreciate me turning them in, please bring us the next they said. I have 2 non-tree type dogs that have shocked me in their 3rd season this year. Very impressed overall, they both have major flaws still. Catch rate on jumps is up, time on jumps shorter. 4 jumps this year have lasted under 3 mins. Have mixed dogs with bear hunters 1 week each the last 4 years. Very legit bear dogs that know what a cat is too. I think they run too wide which allows cats to get back through the dogs easier and leads to over running at times. Have seen my leopard a few feet from a handful of cats, she slows up and barks more looking back for help. She will not grab live fur without backup else I would tell you about a lot more ground catches (I think). A straight line cat in decent terrain and weather conditions should never get away. Overloading a track in powder can cause problems on sneaking cats. 2 yrs ago dogs jumped in blowdown with 8 or so inches fresh snow, lots of snow on trees/brush. Cat came out of blowdown and hit a draw. I watched the snow falling off the brush as the cat went through. Dogs hit where the snow was falling off brush about 50-70yds behind the cat and stopped like they hit a wall. Couldn't restart that cat. March and April (end of our season) I firmly believe is the time to make dogs because there is more bare ground available. Running in deep snow all the time does not help or allow a dog/pack to develop their track and hunting style. It reinforces positive game. I believe light or skiff snow does allow them to develop. I am a weekend warrior right now and have caught more cats and a few lions than days hunted. It is easy to find cats right now and should be even easier with quotas closing. Dogs are 5 or 6 yo redbone, 5yo bluetick, 3+ yo leopard, 2.75yo 5/8trigg/walker x. They are run on lion and bobcat, sleep in the house and go to the local bark park for hikes on off days. Most years I hunt regions 1,2,3,4, & 6 occasionally. So far only region 2 this year. Salivating for the weekend!!! I'll add that I have ran behind these dogs a ridiculous # of times to be there when mistakes happen and correct as best I can and learn their weaknesses. Priceless education in hounds and cats. If I hunt the same spots with the same dogs I will get the same results. Get out and have fun!

dhostetler wrote: I also believe in Oregon it is to brushy for my dogs to run a jumped bobcat like they do in Montana.

What is the difference between a real deal bobcat hound vs. a dog that trees bobcats?

Mike

mike martell wrote:

dhostetler wrote: I also believe in Oregon it is to brushy for my dogs to run a jumped bobcat like they do in Montana.

What is the difference between a real deal bobcat hound vs. a dog that trees bobcats?

Mike

That is where the big debate is. Am I fairly successful with bobcats because I run golf course cats or is it because I have bobcat dogs? If you talk with most Montana hunters they will talk about how hard it is to catch bobcats they run for hours ducking and dodging. A very important factor to catch Montana bobcats is nose power. I have had to cold trail for many hours to get to the jump. I want the coldest nosed hound in the west to reside in my kennel. What I meant in my statement that you quoted is that when I jump a bobcat it gets wind chased and dogs drifting the track up to 30 feet. My guess in brushy country jumped bobcats can not be drifted they have to be trailed.

I am also the lone voice in the wilderness claiming that a good dog should do good on anything you put it on. Out of my top 3 bobcat dogs Ranger and Diamond are my top bear dogs. June doesn't like them on the ground but will stay there and bay from a safe distance. I think those 3 dogs would be good in any country and on any game there just would be a learning curve.

If you really want to be impressed with my dogs you should see them bay a moose

Scott, thanks for posting, I read your post probably 4 times very interesting. Those 2 caught on the ground you think they were just literally run down by the dogs and couldn't run fast enough? The caught on the ground in Montana might happen more than I realize.

I own my own business in December I can usually take plenty of time off, that changes to weekend warrior status in January. I also have friends that continually draw these lion tags and everybody wants to shoot a big tom. I always tell them they have to wait till after the bobcat quota closes. Hunting for a 130 lb tom in Unit 100 is tough and really cuts into the amount of races you get your dogs on.

dhostetler wrote:

mike martell wrote:

dhostetler wrote: I also believe in Oregon it is to brushy for my dogs to run a jumped bobcat like they do in Montana.

What is the difference between a real deal bobcat hound vs. a dog that trees bobcats?

Mike

That is where the big debate is. Am I fairly successful with bobcats because I run golf course cats or is it because I have bobcat dogs? If you talk with most Montana hunters they will talk about how hard it is to catch bobcats they run for hours ducking and dodging. A very important factor to catch Montana bobcats is nose power. I have had to cold trail for many hours to get to the jump. I want the coldest nosed hound in the west to reside in my kennel. What I meant in my statement that you quoted is that when I jump a bobcat it gets wind chased and dogs drifting the track up to 30 feet. My guess in brushy country jumped bobcats can not be drifted they have to be trailed.

I am also the lone voice in the wilderness claiming that a good dog should do good on anything you put it on. Out of my top 3 bobcat dogs Ranger and Diamond are my top bear dogs. June doesn't like them on the ground but will stay there and bay from a safe distance. I think those 3 dogs would be good in any country and on any game there just would be a learning curve.

If you really want to be impressed with my dogs you should see them bay a moose

Duane

I push the lone voice of the wilderness pretty hard for an old man...I have a hound that can bay a bear on my ranches with the best of hounds and catch bobcats like a pro....I have been around top flite dogs of every breed and strain over forty years....I can honestly say I will see different results with my female should I hunt her in the UP of Michigan for instance.

This is not meant to be disrespectful in any way....You drove out to Oregon and put down with Art and received an education that made you form an opinion your hounds can't handle the brush....By definition, you have broken all barriers beyond the scope of most houndsmen on this board with stellar accomplishments in the hound world.

My comment about remaining humble is a reflection of my humblest opinion, you and I and several others own some damn nice hounds, hounds that any man would be proud to own...I just reflect on professional sports and ask, why is it Michael Jordan could only play basketball well and not all sports?

Duane, this is the most demanding sport with very few limitations and this board has challenged those individuals such as yourself to push the bar and you have....I see with my own eyes when I hunt my hounds with the straight real deal bobcat pack and accept the fact I own a fine utility hound and that's it....I also bet I out bay ya on an Elk and challenge you to a baying contest any time you are in Oregon, you are welcome here!

I'm leaving for a fellow houndsmens hound club meeting and will not be able to respond...I sure hope you take my comments for what they are worth with all due respect!

Take care!

Mike

mike martell wrote: This is not meant to be disrespectful in any way....You drove out to Oregon and put down with Art and received an education that made you form an opinion your hounds can't handle the brush....By definition, you have broken all barriers beyond the scope of most houndsmen on this board with stellar accomplishments in the hound world.
Mike

I never brought up that fact for several reasons. I am not sure if Art wants to be discussed online. I ran only one jumped bobcat with him with June and 3 of his dogs. He had run that particular cat before and called it the best cat to run in his area, which meant the toughest one. I am not sure if I should draw to many conclusions off that one race or not. One thing I can tell you the brush is beyond imagination. If I would not have had a dog in the race I would consider Art to have worthless dogs. It was a red hot strike, dogs jumped it right out of the gate, they went down to the bottom and made a loose. My dog June got it out of the loose and got a 100 yard lead on Art's dogs. My 5 minutes of fame was short lived. After that I was last dog or next to last dog. Eventually June and one of Art's dogs got throwed out. If that would've been an easy bobcat June could've treed it during her short lead giving me a claim to fame of catching a bobcat in front of some high powered Oregon dogs. That is why I think dogs and or cats should not be judged on one race only. One conclusion I can make is where that cat was run it is in no way possible for my dogs to run as fast as they do in Montana.

I hope to hunt the Oregon coast in February sometime. I consider that race with Art one of my top 10 bobcat races ever even though my dog got her ass kicked.

Mike,

When I get pictures of a wolverine treed over my dogs, is when I will consider to have reached the pinnacle of success in the hound hunting world. It has been done but so far my races have ended in the vet clinic.