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When I first got into Plotts in the early 80's we already had a problem with running hogs. Most people do not know but La. had a importation of Russian boar in the early 70's. These hogs ran like a bat out of hell so I was looking for dogs that could stick with them. The only Plotts that were half way close to me were all coon bred. I culled them all, could not find one that would stay bayed by thereselves. Tried some bear bred Plotts and had a lot better luck, altho I culled some of them too. There are exceptions in all breeds but my opinion if you hunt big game, go with big game bred dogs & vise versa.
I did keep one of the Brandenburger dogs for a coon dog & everybody told me she was too cold nose & did not hunt out far enough to make a competition dog. She was 7 1/2 years old before a friend of mine talked me into putting her in a comp. Hunt. I won 1st place with her. To make a long story short I finished her to Nt. Ch. with 2 1st. and a 2nd in UKC & had a !st and a 2nd in the ACHA money hunts but by the time she hit 8 she had slowed down too much. There are always exceptions to everything. lol

David, I think your info about the fox hound is more geared toward the English style of hunting.
As you know I grew up in a family of fox/cat hunters, American fox hounds are expected to hunt independently and be able to strike and run their own game. Back when I free casted, I would turn out from 1 to 10, they were expected to scatter to all points of the compass and hunt independently. The pack concept comes into play when one of them strikes, the rest are expected to get there fast and put in with it, when one opens in front of a trailing dog that dog should shut up and get to the dog in front thus advancing the track faster till they get it jumped and running. On a lose they independently cast about and when a dog opens the whole pack should honor and cover that dog up thus keeping pressure on the game.
Sorry, I ramble so much. My point is, if a fox hunter says he has a good pack dog for sale, it is an inferior dog, it's code for this dog will not hunt, strike or trail, will only run (tag along) after another dog gets it going. A totally useless dog to me.

Scrub,as far as i am concerned you can ramble as long and as often as you want. I agree with about everything you have ever posted on here and i think we like the same type of dog.

scrubrunner wrote:David, I think your info about the fox hound is more geared toward the English style of hunting.

It might be more I am mis-interpreting what I heard from Finney when he would talk about the pack in terms of a football team, with each player contributing an important role to the team. Each one did its job, but it all went toward the betterment of the team. Evidently I am incorrect in thinking these were amazing pack dogs. I never can quite get the terminology correct because it is a different language, so to speak, than I am used to.

Evidently, the term "pack dog" is never a compliment, north or south.

But I think for bobcat hunters, it should be. And especially after hunting dogs that refuse to pack.

What you described, Scrubrunner, as the way dogs should work, sounds like a team, or what I would call a "pack". (In the same way a wolf "pack" works together for a common goal) Yours sound like really good pack dogs to me. I guess I need to find some different words.

The big winners in coon competition are not team players at all, and in fact, will work against the other dogs, and may refuse even to honor a tree so he can get a tree all to himself. In my very limited experience I have never seen a foxhound type dog that would hold a tree while the rest of the pack was screaming circles around it on jumped game, or that would stay treed for hours and hours alone with no companions. They are bred to "pack" (pay close attention to each other); They don't have that type of Independance.

But I have owned coon bred dogs that had no problem at all holding a tree under that kind of pressure. (These same dogs would false tree at times also). And I have owned them that I could not say of them "he is a good pack dog". That would be a compliment they did not deserve.

The hound guys I have always been around a dog called a pack dog was considered a dog that never leads or contributes much and always just tags along. A dog like that might contribute on a bayup and possibly become a future lead dog if the lead dogs are lost. Generally a dog called a "pack" dog is not considered a very valuable dog.

I also understand what is being said about dogs packing in. I have hunted with dogs that are impossible to pack in unless you get them on a track even with a roaring race 100 yards away, I absolutely hate dogs like that. I have also had dogs that would go up to a mile to pack in if the sound carried good. When I rig a track most of the time I will dump anywhere from 5 to 10 dogs they all hunt for it and few might go a couple yards up the back track but once the right ends gets found my dogs usually pack all in to the right end I think that helps young dogs to learn to pack in and also gives all the dogs opportunity to start it.

I will mostly be hunting her on coons being on how I'm in Indiana. Mighigan bear country is only a 3 hour drive from my place so I would like to try my dogs on bear an possibly make a trip out west an try my luck at chasing a lion or bobcat.
Being that I'm in the Midwest I run my male cur dog on coon squirrel an groundhogs. Thinking of trying to chase Coyotes with them. I just like to get them on game if I'm running squirrel that day an they bar a fox or a coon it's no big deal to me.

My pup is out of
Ch Grnitech Ripley river Lucky Luke and WCH Boesters Smokin Skinny bones.

Here is a story a man from a long family line of fox hunters told me regarding the Independance of some foxhounds. He said he understood about the pack mentality, but some fox hounds are very independent.

"...last Wednesday my Joe and Eli dogs had located a hole where the Fox race ended, they were treeing/baying/digging at the hole. Other dogs left away from there going to a race that was about 300 yards away building in intensity, those 2 stayed at the hole, I was right at the hole, tried to get them to go to pack, when about 25 dogs got 50 yards away Eli finally was convinced to go bc I wouldn't let him back in the hole. That pack came with in 15 steps of me and my Joe dog never would stop baying/digging at the hole. I think there are some running dogs out there that will stay long enough to find the game regardless of what the pack was doing, he wanted that fox..."


"... I seen often times dogs who will tree or fool around a hole, will leave it to go to another race, but unless that race ends at a hole/tree will often return to the 1st place the race ended and begin to work that hole agian."

mark wrote:Scrub,as far as i am concerned you can ramble as long and as often as you want. I agree with about everything you have ever posted on here and i think we like the same type of dog.

10-4 on that!! Agreed!