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All due rspect, but I don't think you've hunted around very many, if any "coon bred" dogs that are successful on big game of any catagory that show these poor qualities. At least out west and I'm not talking about my dogs. I do know what you're talking about, but it is usually seen in adolescent individuals and if hunted frequently the errant tendencies subside. In fact, I have seen at least as much of this babbly nature in the running dog crooses as with the pure tree hound.
Secondly, my opinion of cold trailing varies widely from what a running dog is capable of, according to your descriptions. That means all of you running dog guys. A real cold trailer, trails cold tracks, not just any track that is pre-jump. A real cold trailer must slow down and put it's head down. By your own admission, Dewey, pepper BECAME a cold trailer as she aged, working tracks that the rest of your pack could not move. She slowed down. Her nose didn't get better, she SLOWED DOWN.
Real cold trailers trail bad/cold tracks that take hours to days to get jumped. Those tracks are not able to be taken on the run. And don't tell me that these tracks can be shortened to a half hour with the right dog. The only way to shorten these tracks is if the dog leaves the track to go find the game. Many dogs can do it, but that is NOT trailing in any way, shape or form.
I will say the coon bred dogs have a propensity to be more independant. They are less likely as a group to honor the front dog.

do any of you running dog guys that run big packs ever take just one dog to the woods to see how it does on its own?i ask the question out of curosity as to what you are breeding for in a running dog.and does that determine if you will breed to it ?im wondering it also because being a treehound breeder i look for the one dog that gets it done best by itself to breed to as do most treehound breeders i would think. that may be where the treehounds get more independance from genetically.just some thoughts

kordog wrote:do any of you running dog guys that run big packs ever take just one dog to the woods to see how it does on its own?i ask the question out of curosity as to what you are breeding for in a running dog.and does that determine if you will breed to it ?im wondering it also because being a treehound breeder i look for the one dog that gets it done best by itself to breed to as do most treehound breeders i would think. that may be where the treehounds get more independance from genetically.just some thoughts

I don't run a big pack and I have ran hounds by themselves but the problem I run into with the counterfeits I have is that they sometimes have a hard time stopping a rough coyote by themselves.

Cobalt,

Things seem to get lost in the Translation between Languages! I tend to speak Southern Running/Fox Hound Speak...You all in the NW tend to speak a different dialect....it is the Nuances/Differences in saying the same things that cause the disagreements.

Now a couple of things which you may not know about me. While I have hunted with Dad's Hounds all my life, and the last 10 years almost full time, I have hunted with AZ Treebred Lion Hounds (from arguably the best Lion Hunter in the SW), South Texas Bobcat Hounds who were from Purebred TW to crossed Trigg-Running Walker-TW Hounds, Coon Hunted with Blueticks, Black and Tans, TW, Plotts. And I have hunted with many crossbred Hounds (these Crosses were Bear/Bobcat Hounds), Running Walker Coyote Hounds, and even Hounds Hunted in the Traditional English Fox Hound Style. I have TRULY been blessed to be able to experience some darn Nice Hounds of all Genres!

You wrote "Secondly, my opinion of cold trailing varies widely from what a running dog is capable of, according to your descriptions. That means all of you running dog guys. A real cold trailer, trails cold tracks, not just any track that is pre-jump. A real cold trailer must slow down and put it's head down."

Now this is where I (maybe we Running Hound Folks) must digress from your views.....where we Hunt, and it may darn sure be different where you hunt, the Scent Column a Varmint leaves Rises. Therefor a Hound who lift it's Head and looks for the hints of Scent left hanging on Vegetation and other terrain features moves a COLD/BAD track more Efficiently than one who "Slows down and put's it's head down". The Well Oiled Machine of a Pack of Hounds who know each other, swiftly advancing in Line Abreast through the Covert, only Speaking when they have the Scent and having the other Hounds Hark to them is a Sight to behold. These Hounds have an earned trust in their Kennel Mates to have the Scent so that they do not have to go to the particular Scented Spot to verify it, they go forward (or sideways maybe some even going back to make sure the Varmint has not pulled a Trick) searching for the next HINT of Scent.

Soon the Gap between Hounds and Varmint has shortened, the Scent is stronger and more Hounds are finding that Scent more frequently and telling their mates and the Boss about it. Then if no major mess-ups happen the Varmint is Jumped and the "Opry" can PLAY!

Kordog, when we go Hunting we expect to be successful.....one Hound where we Hunt just can not keep from making an "unrecoverable" loss on a Bobcat.

Now you do not need 25 or even 12 Hounds to be successful, it just sounds better. A Pack of 4 to 6 Hounds who are trained together will end most Bobcat Races in the Southeast with a Catch. That is why I am working on getting 6 that I can take around the Country to See what the Same Hounds who are good in the SE preform in Maine to WI to OR to South Texas.

Please tell me that great hunter in Arizona was Warner Glenn.

C.JOHN I TRUELY ENJOYED MEETING THE CLAY FAMILY & DON/T LIKE DISAGREEING WITH YOU. BUT YOUR IDEA THAT A WELL TUNED PACK OF RUNNING DOGS JUST LIFT THIER HEADS & TAKE A REALLY COLD TRACK BY DRIFTINY SCENT OFF THE BRUSH JUST BLOWS MY MIND. YOU MAY BE CORRECT, BUT IF YOU ARE WHY AREN/T THE REAL DEAL LION HUNTERS USING YOUR HOUNDS? I HAVE PROMISED MY SELF NOT BE ALLOWED TO GET UP SET WITH ANYONE, JUST ASK QUESTIONS.
YES MARK, DEWEY & I HAVE TALKED & AGREEDED TO SHOW MORE RESPECK FOR EACH OTHER. AL

al baldwin wrote:C.JOHN I TRUELY ENJOYED MEETING THE CLAY FAMILY & DON/T LIKE DISAGREEING WITH YOU. BUT YOUR IDEA THAT A WELL TUNED PACK OF RUNNING DOGS JUST LIFT THIER HEADS & TAKE A REALLY COLD TRACK BY DRIFTINY SCENT OFF THE BRUSH JUST BLOWS MY MIND. YOU MAY BE CORRECT, BUT IF YOU ARE WHY AREN/T THE REAL DEAL LION HUNTERS USING YOUR HOUNDS? I HAVE PROMISED MY SELF NOT BE ALLOWED TO GET UP SET WITH ANYONE, JUST ASK QUESTIONS.
YES MARK, DEWEY & I HAVE TALKED & AGREEDED TO SHOW MORE RESPECK FOR EACH OTHER. AL

How do you know for sure they aren't using each others hounds? Hell just cuz one family is breeding this dog and another is breeding that dog don't mean they aren't pretty damn close to being the same thing.

From what I have seen with the running cross dog's moving a cold trail any faster then the REG TW I hunt with in the area I hunt has not happened. Now if my dogs did not honor the front dog and did not run to its bark or was barking behind there would be a big problem there. Or if they weren't moving a Cold Trail at a brisk pace there would also be a problem. I have been around more TW then I have anything else. For me I look for a clean running dog that move's a track. It can be any color. One of the Best dogs I hunted was a Blue dog. Could flat out move a track cold or jumped. I hunt a Bluetick cross I believe that's what she is, who can flat out move a track and do it cleanly. If there is a lose all the dogs shut up till one say's I got it if the cat goes up there is the moment of silence till its located. I think that's what most Top cat hunters packs are doing whether it be running dog, running cross, or Tree breeds.

merlo_105 wrote:I think that's what most Top cat hunters packs are doing whether it be running dog, running cross, or Tree breeds.

I'm not even a cat hunter and I can say with 99% certainty that's what they are all doing.

With in the confines of every TRAIL HOUND breed standard these words should be written as # 1.

1) THE NUMBER ONE TRAIT SHOULD BE TO RUN AS FAST AS ITS NOSE WILL ABLE IT TO WITH OUT INTERFERING WITH THE SMOOTH PROGRESS OF THE PACK. WITH THE INTENT TO OVER TAKE TREE OR MARK END OF THE RUN.

This should not be hard to grasp. If one has this with in the confines of registered tree hounds. You are to be commended for keeping it alive. Because the majority is trying to undermine your hard work. But when you BS your self as to over all toughness regarding multiple tracks per day multiple days in a row. You are putting your self on public display to be viewed as a fool, for there are too many that know better. The exception might possibly the government hunter that loads up everyday. And he better have and maintained the older type hound that many relive in their memory. And guess what???? It is because they line bred and maintained a line of hound. That was dam close to original running blood that some seem to have a bug up their azz about.

WITH OUT BEING ABLE TELL WHAT THE NESSASARY INGREDIANTS TO THE GOLDEN RULE ARE ALL CONVERSATION IS REALLY WAISTED.



Take care, Willie

I hunt running walkers,they don't run any faster than their nose will let them,on a cold track they do put their nose to the ground and trail the game but usally not track to track vacuuming and blowing dust like my beagles do,they will smell it on the ground, open, cast ahead while smelling the bushes and such, if they dont smell game on the bushes good enough to open they will go back to the ground, as the track progresses they start lifting their head and getting more scent from the bushes than the ground. The warmer nosed hounds will be checking this hound and casting ahead and left and right, when one of them starts opening that cold trailing hound will shut up and get there. I love to see a running hound harking to another hound, you'd better not be in a direct line between them or you will be run over. I feel that is when most young running dogs get hurt. Pulling shoulders and such because no hound can run a scent as fast as it can run but it will hark to another hound as fast as it can possibly run. I rarely run mine alone start to finish but they all get their turn hunting and getting game up and running by their self then i pack the rest to them one at a time. I can sit on the tailgate and LISTEN to the race and know who is doing what!

Mr clay. I like to use the term shut up and get up. When one of my dogs make a pickup from a loose or is trailing and the dog or dogs that are behind at what ever distance trailing or trying to pick up they should hark to that dog , shut their mouth and get there. I've seen it time and again on a loose dogs bumping here and there trying to pick it back up and all dogs are doing their own thing. Then when one opens the right way it's like that dogs saying I got it boys right here and the rest like scrubrunner says are knocking down small trees making arrangements to be there. QUITELY until they have the scent. On the trailing part a dogs got to pick his head up to move a older track where I'm at. I've had tree dog people say they trailed all night on a cold track. Well they were actually just running way behind. A dog has got to pick his nose up move forward catch that scent that's settled on bushes above ground and gain ground on the critter or they may never jump it. I'm a true believer scents not always on the ground and in right conditions I believe it lingers in the air here for long periods when the humidity is way up in the summer. I love to here a dog trail but he best make some ground and move the track even if that means closing his mouth and picking his nose up and going forward. 85 degrees at night high humidity no rain for several days not a drop of dew in 2500 acres 3 year old briar infested cut over trying to trail. Better have something to get its head up and smell scent laying in places other than the ground.

Cobalt: Your idea of how a hound cold trails is what is wrong with the breeding of treeing dogs today. I own and can show you dogs other than mine that take a 6 to 10 hour old track and leave the country with heads up taking scent off the brush putting heads down and trailing if need be. That can trail and catches cats in the summer dry. A track that may go 2 to 5 miles of trailing to jump it. How many running dogs and what breeding have you hunted. Is your opinion or have really seen what a bobcat dog can do. Loner of JC was black and tan but was able to take a cold track and get out of dodge with most of the dogs behind running from what I have hear about him. There is so much talk on here that is just someone's opinion from their limited knowledge. I will be the first to say I don't know it all about dogs but I have sure seen a lot of cats in the trees and I seen dogs that could run a cold track with head up off the brushes. I have hunted with Clay dogs in Texas and Arkansas There hunting is different than we do but their dogs are a pleasure to watch and listen to on a bobcat. There sure is not a lot of what I call off barking or babbling that I see around here with what people call bobcat dogs. Anybody in my book that hunts multiple game with their dogs don't have bobcat dogs they just got dogs that catch bobcats. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am. I guess I am just the dumbest hound man I know and the luckiest because of the game I catch. I am sure the hard headed, because I just don't give trying educate people that are closed minded. Dewey

Also there is a slow but steady rumbling in the south west that top lion hunters slowly but surely are crossing beagles with great success. And I believe it will get better yet with the full size version. Guys are tired of following dogs that not only have no idea what direction the track is going but don't care.


Take care, Willie