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slowandeasy wrote:Also there is a slow but steady rumbling in the south west that top lion hunters slowly but surely are crossing beagles with great success. And I believe it will get better yet with the full size version. Guys are tired of following dogs that not only have no idea what direction the track is going but don't care.


Take care, Willie

Oh no you didn't!

Dan,


I said top lion hunters!!!! There should have been your first clue I wasn't doing it!!!




Take care, Willie

slowandeasy wrote:Also there is a slow but steady rumbling in the south west that top lion hunters slowly but surely are crossing beagles with great success. And I believe it will get better yet with the full size version. Guys are tired of following dogs that not only have no idea what direction the track is going but don't care.


Take care, Willie

Willie, sometimes I think all us old hound men just got to much free time on our hands, one thing for sure, never can be sure, if you are serious or just like to get a rise. Beagles are your specialty, but do you truly believe on a two day old lion scent ( as some track) those beagles are always going to know for sure the correct direction? Take care Al

Al,


No I don't think any of the breeds that they say are capable of two, or my god some even say three day old tracks. Have any inclination what way they are going. Worst yet it is my opinion that they don't care. And it is becoming more obvious to some that it is more productive to cover more ground and try and shortin the track up. And get to a point where a average cold nose dog can tell on his own what way the track is going. Which I believe puts more meat in the tree or rocks. This is only my belief based on my knowledge of hounds. But there is plenty of others that feel the exact opposite. And might I say that I have ultimate respect for. I just struggle with having to stay with a hound searching for a track to make sure it is going the right way. Don't know if I'll ever know who is right or wrong. But do know I aint doin the dogs job, And will cut back on nose till the son of a guns get the right end on their own. I am sure there is a happy medium with the amount of nose some where.



Take care, Willie

dwalton wrote:Cobalt: Your idea of how a hound cold trails is what is wrong with the breeding of treeing dogs today. I own and can show you dogs other than mine that take a 6 to 10 hour old track and leave the country with heads up taking scent off the brush putting heads down and trailing if need be. That can trail and catches cats in the summer dry. A track that may go 2 to 5 miles of trailing to jump it. How many running dogs and what breeding have you hunted. Is your opinion or have really seen what a bobcat dog can do. Loner of JC was black and tan but was able to take a cold track and get out of dodge with most of the dogs behind running from what I have hear about him. There is so much talk on here that is just someone's opinion from their limited knowledge. I will be the first to say I don't know it all about dogs but I have sure seen a lot of cats in the trees and I seen dogs that could run a cold track with head up off the brushes. Dewey

Dewey

I probably travel as much as anyone putting dogs down in other places and totally agree with your analogy....My female is almost full running dog and when she was younger, she was like you described in moving a cold track.....I switch hit my dogs because of the other States and province I hunt in and this impacts the dogs over all ability and performance, I have seen a transformation with doing the multiple species with my own eyes...I catch my share of bobcats, but like I was telling Mark just the other day, I need to ramp up my catching game percentages to run with the big dogs, what you just described is exactly what I'm talking about. I keep on switch hitting? It will not matter what I add to the mix. I have three dogs I run at the moment and adding a young dog for this fall....I don't care about the cats I miss, I'm just fortunate to be able to walk in to my dogs on those bobcats treed and I'm still plugging along..... I hunt alone so it is easier to see exactly what happens and why, admitting it is another!....The easiest way to settle the whole hounds vs. running dogs and trailing is to hunt in heavy wolf country? You would have the debate ended by seeing with your own eyes.


Mike

WILLIE; I have had conversation with hunters from Mexico that have been mixing beagles with hounds for a while. Years a go Rocky Davis had a full beagle that was a bobcat treeing machine. Not a real hard tree dog but what do you expect from a running dog. Russ Barney had a 1\2 beagle that was a top cat dog. Maybe I have had my sights to high, I need to drop down about 12 inches. Take care Willie. Sure hope it quits raining up here soon. Dewey

lol Dewey. I guess I saved you the misery of owning one of my dogs by not giving you the option. Besides, remember, you don't like blueticks. You think you'd have been objective if you had one?? No. Your arrogance precedes your good judgement as always.
I did know the Loner dog of JC's, although not well. I think he was a true cold nosed dog and I recollect hunts told to me where dogs messed around on cold tracks methodically (not on the RUN!), that Loner ended up getting out on because he probably shut up or dogs didn't pay attention to him (like Buck and Paige lol). I don't think is was speed on a cold track that got him alone as much as talent. Unlike you, JC hunted with other peoples dogs as well as his own, alone with frequency. Lots of individuals, rarely a diciplined pack. I hunted with Buck many times and some of his progeny. Decent enough dogs. If they'd of outdone my dogs ever, I'd say so. I haven't run against many running dog crosses. I do appreciate them for what they are. One I did run with a top dog out of central Oregon, when the guy left after a few days he commented that if he were to run with me again, he needed a better class of dog. I ran a little with the famous Stretch. Not enough to do a good comparison, but my 11 month old puppies could move an older track in melting snow far more efficiently.
You are right that a multi-pupose dog is not as good on bobcat as the same dogs is on straight bobcat (and it's easier to achieve)), but you ought to be thankful I run most tree game because if I ran bobcat only, I'd scare the shiot out of your belief system. Why don't you take your best dog and go run with robin's Rogue dog, then go to Don's and turn out with Bonnie. Both dogs are straight cat dogs out of my breeding. If you really want to scare yourself, go visit merlo.

Let me tell you about a beagle that could cold trail with any dog in the southwest. I only saw one dog that could cold trail with him. He belonged to a good friend of mine in Arizona. Actually he was half beagle but looked like a registered 13 incher. His sire was a walker from Oregon. He was a cold nosed cat, lion and bear dog. My friend bought him from an old man on the Oregon California border that was up in age. The dog was named Bawlie if any of you Oregon or California guys ever heard of him. Anyway, my friend bought Bawlie and bred him to a beagle and raised the whole litter. 3 made good hounds and 1 was exceptional. He could flat move a track and treed many lions, some on those 2 to 3 day old tracks Willie was talking about. He was also a stay put tree dog!!! The problem was , he would run anything, and I mean anything. From Bigfoot to turtles, he could fly. If you put him on a track, he would not switch was his only saving grace and you were not going to call him off or shock him off. Saw him run a coyote for nine days before he finally quit! Lol this has been a good thread and very good info for young and old. Hope I did not sidetrack from it, but when I saw beagles mentioned thought y'all would enjoy the story.

David

Good time to switch topics! We need a breather from the Bluetick- ruinning dog talk....Mark had a beagle about 40 years ago that was as trashy as the day was long....He too needed broke off field mice and grasshoppers.....That beagle would run a bear race in the big mountains better than a lot of good hounds. I remember putting him down in a block on a bear heading East and the drive around was about 20 miles and danged if that beagle didn't make the block to where we were heading.....I think them dogs heart is all they have! I bet he would have made an excellent lion and coon dog if given a chance. Ya say that dog ran a coyote for 9 days? How did he keep from starving to death?

Mike

Now that we've changed the subject a buddy of mine had a pack of half Bassett and supposedly half bluetick. They were the dadgumest looking dogs I have ever seen, big body with big boned legs about 4". The 2 males gonads drug the ground when they got older, one of the ladys that deer hunted with us would tape them up. Trashiest dogs I've ever seen, they'd run anything. Couldn't hardly deer hunt with them for treeing bears. One day I ran on foot flanking them till my butt was dragging my tracks out and my tounge was on my chest. I finally got ahead of em,they bout run me over when they crossed the road. They were running a fissering!!! (saw a Texan on here mention a sissering, I think it's the same thing ) I've heard single hounds trail or run them before but not a whole pack and never as good as these were running it!!! Same guy had a beagle one time that would shock most hunters how he could run with the big dogs in a fox or cat race, never saw him in the lead but he was just about always with the pack. I had to see it to believe it.

I have seen a pack of Varmint Beagles on the East coast just blew my mind how many Coyote they shot in front of them dogs and how many bobcats fell to the ground with Beagle's treeing them. Blew my mind...

Mike, we had a tent camp set up an every night we could hear him coming from one direction with the coyote yipping in front of him and by the time we got up to try to catch the little fart he was going out of hearing the other way. My buddy that owned him drove for nine days trying to stop him. He finally quit and I picked him up on the road and he looked pretty bad! We were in a lot of roadless country so you really could not go cut him off. You had to lay a hand on him to stop him. Stir fry on a trash breaker would just make him drive harder. He would definitely write the book on trashy, but you put him on a lion or bobcat track, that critter was in trouble! I don't see why the coyote just did not stop and eat him!! LOL like I said he was only about 13 inches high! I will also add, he had a big mouth that you could hear along way! 8 nights in a row he took that coyote right thru camp and we could not stop him. Picked him up ninth day about 3 o'clock.

David

Having met you in person, I just got to take you at your word! I been thinking about the dog and how dehydrated and run down he must have been....Appears almost impossible. I remember prior to Gadgetry having a dog lost for three or four days and how bad they looked....Longest race I had thirty years or so back was on a bear, 51 hours. Turned our Saturday morning and after a walking, fighting skirmish, I walked into my dogs treed Monday about noon....I will post some Throwback pictures on fb...Some kind of heart and drive.....I got to admit...I don't want dogs with this kind of heart...Like my old buddy Choice Branton, a big time running dog man of many years past, said it best when he quit running dogs when he turned 70 years old and switched to hounds, the words now have true meaning...."I'm a pot licker hunter!" (Hounds compared to running dogs).....Choice always said it and I didn't buy one single word he said at that time owning and hunting only hounds...If you think them hounds can run, you just have no idea son, no idea!

Take Care!

Mike

Mike, I'm like your old friend, a pot licker hunter! Lol I do admire running dogs AND houndy hounds. They all have a place in our great sport! As said many times on this forum there are places where one type will excel in areas and other areas will fall short. The same goes the other way! I hope one day to be able to get a good set of hounds and a good set of running dogs and hunt them in various parts of the country and keep good notes on what works where. Probably just a pipe dream as I ain't no youngster, but it would be a hell of a trip!

Count me in Bloooooooooooooooooouuuue!!!!!!!!