BigGameHoundsmen.com

OK sorry, I missed that. To the best of my knowledge no one is left alive that can definatively answer this issue.
All that seems to be left is hearsay.

So who picked out those two pups anyway?

I'd also be curious as to why those 2 pups were picked. Was is based primarily on looks or was it proven hunting abilities as shown by their parentage? Interesting topic....

Brady Davis wrote:I'd also be curious as to why those 2 pups were picked. Was is based primarily on looks or was it proven hunting abilities as shown by their parentage? Interesting topic....

Are you talking asbouty Spartan and Marengo, the two Gran blues?

Yes Sir...

ill see what i can find for photos of bill.i was looking over some old film the other day and found some of bill and dogs that i never had seen before some are on a steam boat i think some of a dog trial.illput them on a dvd some day but it will take some time.

liontracker wrote:Yes Sir...

I am not certain, seems that John had a relitive or contact in France, John did not go to France but had shipping brokers handle the shipping, I recall it cost him a bundle.Getting a dog from there to here, through quarenteen, etc was a nightmare.
I have often said that these two hounds could have come from the worst breeder over there, I don~t know---all I have is an opinion on them. However the horrid pelvis and rear assembly is an old problem in Gran Bleus--I have read in very old visulations that breeders were encouraged to correct the problem. I beleive it is a dominate factor as I have seen this carry through the ancestors of these two hounds.

That's what I thought. What are the chances of getting the highest quality pup, without a knowledgeable breeder going there and picking it out? I think the chances would be far greater to get a cull or two.

liontracker wrote:That's what I thought. What are the chances of getting the highest quality pup, without a knowledgeable breeder going there and picking it out? I think the chances would be far greater to get a cull or two.

No doubt about it. understand this, I have no axe to grind, no agenda nor much interest in the two topics we have kicked around. I live in the present and hopefully a bit into the future. my understanding of hound history may differ from that of others, we are all entitled to an opinion, that is, unless Obama takes that right away altogether.

bignblu wrote:I have heard that Bill was a real hard hunter, lived in an era when there was lots of game and, very importrant, a lot of grand old hounds. Some lee, smokey River, Harry O, Grant etc, etc. I understand he had the funds and time to search out and enjoy some great hound power, the numerous photos seem to support that. But he was only in hounds for about 6 years as I have been told many times, if so, not time enough to develope a line or create the Rep of men Like Grant or Vaughan, even with a promoter like Vinny.
Just an opinion form from what I have heard over the years.
He sure had some grand hounds and put lots of game in trees

Thanks, Bob. I would hate for any of us to take away from the image of Bill Green. I'm sure he was a fine man and a great houndsman. As you have pointed out, there were quite a few of them in those days. Not only in our own big blues, but in other breeds as well. The historian in me would absolutely love to be able to travel back to that time and get some of those great old houndsmen together in one room.

liontracker wrote:Actually it is the most important part. Because no one has ever reproduced a Green Mountain Hound.

Tim,

Why is it necessary to reproduce a Green Mountain hound? Were they in any way superior to the old bloodlines of Harry Smith, Elbert Vaughn, of Oliver Grant? If so, what made them superior? Is it possible that Bill Green is the most underrated and underappreciated foundation breeder of the big blue hound of today? I certainly believe it is possible, but if so, then why?

Somewhere I've become lost in this thread. Have we proven in any size shape or form that Bill Green (or any other prominent houndsman of that time) actually imported French hounds and incorporated them into their breeding program? What evidence do we have outside of a few pictures? I'll be the first to admit that I can see what appears to similar characteristics in the pics that Steve posted between Bill's hounds and the pure French hounds in the other pics, but I've seen those same characteristics in modern hounds. The french influence is undoubtedly there, but how many generations removed?

I'm not asking to be contentious. I'm asking an honest question as a person who would like to know more hound history.

Obviously the importation of French Grande Bleu de Gascognne bloodlines has greatly and negatively impacted the modern big blues. I can see where that would cause others to be wary of such a cross. On ther other hand, maybe you are on the right track with your GSs. They are a completely different breed than the Grande Bleus, aren't they? I, for one, wish you luck with your endeavor. I believe we all are trying to get to the same place. We're just taking different paths to get there. I see no harm in that unless we start thinking our path is the only one. I wish you luck in what you're trying to do. I hope that you have more success than I ever did.

lmorgan wrote:

liontracker wrote:Actually it is the most important part. Because no one has ever reproduced a Green Mountain Hound.

Tim,

Why is it necessary to reproduce a Green Mountain hound? Were they in any way superior to the old bloodlines of Harry Smith, Elbert Vaughn, of Oliver Grant? If so, what made them superior? Is it possible that Bill Green is the most underrated and underappreciated foundation breeder of the big blue hound of today? I certainly believe it is possible, but if so, then why?

Somewhere I've become lost in this thread. Have we proven in any size shape or form that Bill Green (or any other prominent houndsman of that time) actually imported French hounds and incorporated them into their breeding program? What evidence do we have outside of a few pictures? I'll be the first to admit that I can see what appears to similar characteristics in the pics that Steve posted between Bill's hounds and the pure French hounds in the other pics, but I've seen those same characteristics in modern hounds. The french influence is undoubtedly there, but how many generations removed?

I'm not asking to be contentious. I'm asking an honest question as a person who would like to know more hound history.

Obviously the importation of French Grande Bleu de Gascognne bloodlines has greatly and negatively impacted the modern big blues. I can see where that would cause others to be wary of such a cross. On ther other hand, maybe you are on the right track with your GSs. They are a completely different breed than the Grande Bleus, aren't they? I, for one, wish you luck with your endeavor. I believe we all are trying to get to the same place. We're just taking different paths to get there. I see no harm in that unless we start thinking our path is the only one. I wish you luck in what you're trying to do. I hope that you have more success than I ever did.

Great questions and most of these have been asked before. LT and I got sideways because alot of these same questions were asked and i feel just like biganblu that if Lt didn't like the question (or in his case the answers)he flew off the handle. My biggest question is like lmorgan said where is your proof? I have hounds that could pass as Bill Green hounds and I have seen plenty that look alot alike his hounds, but that doesn't mean anything.
Steve keeps putting up ads and I have read them and they say nothing of any french hound.
You guys are making alot of assumptions.
And like was mentioned before, just because you get a french hound and breed it to a US hound, that does not gauratree you will get the best and coldest nosed hound in the world like has been claimed.
Just like any dog the US has got from over seas, we usualy got their culls.
I have nothing against anyone making a better hound. But anyone trying to do it and says it can not fail. I call BS. But we will see. I sure haven't seen a pile of pictures like was promised this season.

We are most definately trying to get to the same place. I wish I had a scanner so that you could read Harry O. Smiths' own words and his highest opinion of Bill Greens hounds and the Bill green hounds that he used in the Sugar Creek hound. Remember when Bill Harshman lobbied so hard to get Bill Greens hounds registered why do you suppose he would do that? I think because they were exceptional and would make a serious contribution to the breed. Look at all the Lee bro.'s x Green crosses. Why even 20 years later, Clell lee bought a Sugar Creek bitch from Del Cameron that was heavy Green blood for an outcross bitch. As a western biggame hound, I think they were superior to the Sugar Creek, Vaughn, and O.O. Grant of the time. That is why I want to reproduce some. I think Bill was an inovative thinker and had access to things other breeders didn't.

lmorgan wrote:What evidence do we have outside of a few pictures? I'll be the first to admit that I can see what appears to similar characteristics in the pics that Steve posted between Bill's hounds and the pure French hounds in the other pics, but I've seen those same characteristics in modern hounds. The french influence is undoubtedly there, but how many generations removed?

If undoubtedly there, then where else did it come from? The next earliest option would be tooo many generations removed to have that kind of influence. It has got to be from a relatively recent influence or it would be bred out by now. The bluetick breeder breeds for a heavy, blocky head and that french style head would never last. Yet it keeps showing up. In my last Sugar Creek x Cameron cross there were two males that showed this influence. Where did that come from? I think the reason you see it in modern hounds is because of Bill green. When he died, who all bred to those french looking black and white hounds he had? Who was actually honest about it? This Screen is out of room so I guess that is all for now.

Mr.pacojack wrote:I sure haven't seen a pile of pictures like was promised this season.

... and you won't either. I never promissed them. And I'm not playing show and tell.]

Mr.pacojack wrote:I have hounds that could pass as Bill Green hounds and I have seen plenty that look alot alike his hounds, but that doesn't mean anything.

Unless they have Green blood in them.

Mr.pacojack wrote:And like was mentioned before, just because you get a french hound and breed it to a US hound, that does not gauratree you will get the best and coldest nosed hound in the world like has been claimed

I never claimed anything of the sort. Exacty what said was that "I expect this will raise the bar on the definition of a cold nosed hound".

Mr.pacojack wrote:Just like any dog the US has got from over seas, we usualy got their culls.

Do not even try in insinuate that my GGS imports are culls. The exact opposite is true. When African split the two litters, he took pick males and gave me pick females from one litter and vise versa on the other. He is an excellent judge of a hound and knows exactly what it takes in a top cat hound. His judicious selection shows in these original 2 pair and now in these new pups.

Mr.pacojack wrote:I have nothing against anyone making a better hound. But anyone trying to do it and says it can not fail. I call BS.

Me too ... lookie there, we agree on something!

Mr.pacojack wrote:But we will see.

Yes WE will... and so far I see it in the originals and now in their pups. The guys with those pups are seeing it already as well.

Like I said before, this is about nose and speed...and it is unfolding in front of me as we speak.

Once agian, Nice dance. Still no proof

Thanks, Tim, for your opinions. That's all I was asking. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not at all knowledgeable about Bill Green outside of what I've read over the years in Full Cry or old BBCHA Blue Book articles. You've done a great job shedding light on his career as a houndsman. So has Bob, bow, and others.

I'm still confused about the discrepancy in how long he was involved in hounds, but what difference does it make? However, in lieu of actual documentation that Bill Green personally imported French hounds and incorporated them into his breeding, I'll just have to go with your assumption. It makes sense to me. Opinions and circumstatial evidence in this case may be all we have or ever will have. Personally, I can't accept anything as a historical fact without the documentary providence. I'm absolutely not saying it didn't happen and your theory is as good as any I've heard, but honestly, without written proof, all we have is opinion and educated guesswork.