BigGameHoundsmen.com

al baldwin wrote: It is strange that age has made me have a little regret every time I harvest a cat. I just know, I have a much better feeling about myself & the hounds when I pull the hounds off a catch & leave the cat to chase again.

Mr. Baldwin, you aren't the only one that gets that pit in your stomach when a bobcat is dispatched. My Grandpa and almost all the Southern California Cat and Fox hunters during his era would absolutely refuse to harvest a varmint. My Grandpa never even took a gun to the woods. Those Southern California houndsmen during that era almost considered it a sin to shot a varmint from a tree.
When I was younger and very much dumber (age changes your views and thinking) I got my butt chewed out several times by my Grandpa when he found out I took a cat or fox from our hunting grounds. I used to think that my hounds needed to wool a varmint to make those running hounds tree better. I couldn’t have been more wrong.
In the last decade the dogs I owned have only chewed on a few cats that refused or didn’t make it to a tree or rock pile. During fur harvesting season, after I’m positive I’m only taking a mature Tom will I harvest a cat for its fur. I tie my hounds back and would never allow them to chew on a thin skinned cat hide. Having hounds chew a cat hide up is going to drop its value alot. If you are in doubt about the sex of the cat, leash the dogs off the tree. If you have confidence in your dog’s abilities you know for sure you will tree more. I can guarantee you it will not hurt your hounds abilities to tree game.
I know proper predator management is necessary to maintain a healthy overall cat population. Mature male bobcats are female bobcats worst adversary for producing a healthy litter of kittens and maintaining a cat population.
Basically what I’m saying is you don’t need to harvest cats to make better hounds. Hounds don’t need to chew on a cat to be better dogs. Cat hounds need exposure and a top handler not a chew toy to make better dogs. Better dogs come from a careful breeding program and wise thought out crosses and hard hunters that know what their dogs are doing at all times. I always looked at it this way show me a good hunter and I will show you a good pack of dogs!
I know you are a very experienced cat hunter and I’m not teaching you anything you don’t already know. I just wanted you to know that there are large groups of likeminded hound hunters out there that feel the same way you feel about harvesting game, but like you stated it's up to the hunters discretion. We just hope hunters make a wise decision before they chose to harvest a cat. After its harvested its too late to change your mind. A nippled or milk stained bellied female isn't worth much at all, and has way more value to the hound hunters and the cat population left unharmed.

boy cra, you sure do cut to the quick about telling it the way it is. the guys that have the most knowledge will stand tall with ya and the ones that don't, well we will just have to let that age thing cure that. also i probably am waisting my breath saying this because i am relatively positive you already know. but for the ones it may help shaking game out to rerun will make the most loose tree dog you can imagine, and will also change the way the critter feels about treeing. when i was younger not knowing any better i would climb trees while coon hunting with a six foot snare,snare the coon. go back down the tree about twelve foot from the pups and plunge the coon down tree just out of reach of the pups. really made bug eyed tree dogs but the coon got to where as soon as ya put a light in the tree they bailed. take care and good luck

Slowandeasy correct shakeouts can make some dogs become loose tree dogs, learned the hard way long time ago. Did not register untill, read a John Wick article, hit me. Thats why split became a loose tree dog! Also had two year male that started pulling off cold cat tracks to run deer. Shocked him & every thing I knew, nothing worked. Disgusted offered to give him away, told them his problem, no takers. Laid him up for extended time, wife declared either hunt him, or get him out of here, tired of barking. Took him out alone , ran a cat, nice job. Placed him back with pack, expecting another challenge, surprised, no deer problems. Finally hit me Wick was correct again, laying a dog up can braek a bad habit sometimes. Sure you knew, maybe will help someone else. Positive also had better deer broke older dogs after that experience. That dog was soon a nice cat hound. Bad luck, lost him early to lung cancer. Thanks Al Baldwin

Will you guys explain more on the loose tree dogs? I have been jumping almost every lion out to my dogs I usually have some younger dogs there and it seems to keep there interest. Should i not be doing this?

Welcome to the site CRA. Great post

ringo, will try and explain best i can. lions are a different story. although it is still bad to do. alot of lions are treed in trees and bluffs where the hounds are looking at them, and at times they even jump them before we even arrive at the tree or bluff. so jumping them people tend to get away with a little more than when game including lion or bear trees in bigger and taller trees out of sight. when this happens a hound has to have a true ability to locate with his nose only, and believe it self enough to stay treed until you arive. dogs that have alot of things jumped out tend to be the ones that if they hear the brush crack or another hound bark in the distance. they think that is the party they should be involved in. and will leave game in the tree before you get there. if you want to see what i am talking about. if you tree something in a tall tree out of sight take one of your dogs 50 to75 yards away from the tree leash it to a tree and walk to the other dogs that are treeing. when that hound starts raising hell to get to the treeing dogs, if your dogs that are treeing leave the tree with game in it this is what a loose tree dog is.they need to know when they tree leaving the tree is unacceptable. jumping stuff out is one of the fastest ways to create this problem. take care and good luck

Boy there is alot of food for thought in this thread.....

We got a hunters campfire going on. My thanks to all who are adding to the campfire, great conversation guys.

Great thread guys. I was gonna enter my two cents but it has already been covered.
Wlecome CRA you are welcome at my camp anytime and Mr. Al I hope we can meet some time I would be honored to shake you hand sir.

Mic O'Brien

I mentioned earlier about not jumping the cats out,was a little apprehensive about saying much on my feelings about this.Come to find out,I'm not crazy like I've been told,or I just have some classy company who thinks like I do about not restarting a track at the tree.

Blazenbrat--is ''around here" Idaho or MN??[Minnesota??]I'm horrible about the abbreveation thing.To me a coldtrack is one they have start with their head down also,I know for a fact that other conditions as well as time age a track,to make it hard to trail.Also have seen some of my coldnosed dogs[I don't keep them if they're not]make a track look worse than what it is at times.I probably wouldn't have known this unless I seen another dog get in there and walk off with it.When this happened a few times I starting scratching my head[got me to thinking].Here's what my personal opinion is,I don't think it's gospel!!If a guy has aline of dogs which have worked for him in the conditions he hunts,I think by selecting for the kind of dog you described and breeding for that within aline[linebreeding]along with an outcross[from some linebreeding also]can cause a hybred vigor in the first generation cross that can have some amazing results.The key/question is can we preserve that by going back in pretty tight and hold onto it for many generations??I believe to be possible,based on some of the guys who've had tremendous success with various breeds of dogs that this has been proven on.If I thought one guy[s[ had it figured out in its entirety and had a monoply on it I guess I wouldn't be opened minded enough to try any other dogs,but Iknow there are several folks around the country who've put a great deal of effort/time into their programs who have what they want and striving for better,and to those are the ones I like to aquire dogs from.Hopeing to better myself and pack,I always like to think it could be bettered here and there.

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Tim Pittman 541-912-6464

just my observation, anybody that can make this statement didn't just fall off the turnip wagon. and shouldn't feel aprehensive about posting very much

I'm one that doen't like to shake or get an animal to jump tree while the dogs watch. I've had bad luck with it making the dogs not hold trees. Thats my experience over my lifetime. Not all dogs react the same way to this, however, its not worth the risk because it can take a year to repair the behavior. What I have done with success is to pull the older dogs off a successful tree especially with snow, then bring in the pups on the off track. Now, the pups have no knowledge of the tree so leaving a tree isn't a problem. Thats just a trick I use to get some extra experience for the up and coming hounds I train.

Guys I'm overwhelmed by the warm welcoming I have received on this site. I truly appreciated it. If we can all get along and respectfully disagree if our opinions are different than we can share our knowledge about hounds and the game we chose to pursue and can all learn alot from each others observations and experiences.

Now back to the subject; Cat Populations

The US and Canada has identified 12 different sub-species of Bobcats. What are your opinions on the variables of litter sizes with the different subspecies of bobcats throughout the US and Canada?

I would think due to the size differences of bobcats from one region to another that there would almost have to be a change in litter sizes. I don’t think it would be a huge difference, just having that extra kitten would help in the overall cat population in that region.

In my area I have never observed anything that would lead me to believe that a female bobcat has more than 4 kittens at birth, 3 is probably a normal litter size for my region.

Very good bunch of reading on this post. Also I would like to welcome CRA to the site, you have alot to offer thanks you, Andy

CRA, here in south Texas I believe the average litter size would be from 2 to 3 kittens. Quite often I have seen 2 kittens with their mother when they are big enough to travel, and sometimes 3.

In the early '80s, a friend of mine found a litter of kittens in an old abandoned house and there was 4 in that litter, but I sure believe that is out of the normal for here.

Sure would like to know the mortality rate of the kittens until they are up to 6 months old.

I really enjoy reading your posts. Very educational. Thanks. Robbie