Page 3 of 4
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:53 am
by tntoutfitting
Count me as ....AGREE
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:30 am
by Spanky
Nolte the philosopher
If somebody in your area is whackin/stacking game it's probably a good idea to see what's working for them.
could not agree more with that staement and especially the
in your area part
Most people thought the old lines where the best yet i just wonder how much that has to do with the old timers hunting (most times year round) alot
I personally do not think that has anything to do with the lines today. Granted the more the hound hunts the better he should be in the field but he is only gonna be as good as the tools he has to work with in my opinion.
walker dogs
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:17 am
by schoonie
been hunting hounds,about twenty years,seen alot good hounds in all the breeds,got a number of hunting buddies,hunted full time for the most part, seen no saying how many tree's cat,coon,bear there's always been a good walker dog under those tree's as far as a decline,i don't think so,hunt them walker dogs hard,that are bred right,they will speak for themselves,i've owned about every color hound out there,out back right now blue,redtick,black,walker dogs some of the best i've owned
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:38 am
by Houndhead
Heck,guys now days hunt way more than years ago.Guys go on internet hunts 7 days a week and put up game like crazy.Heck,there are even internet hunting places where if you don't spend enough time hunting on the net they kick you off.
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:04 pm
by onalimb
.....
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:10 pm
by david
Spanky wrote:Dogs that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually called "Walkers"
So what does that make you then Dave since your the authority and seem to have a hard time over coming your instincts in owning more then one.....
I have had a lot of Walkers, and some very good ones. But when you say they are smarter than hell, I am suddenly thinking that maybe hell is not very smart, or if hell is really smart, and your dogs are smarter still, then you have Walker dogs the likes of I have never seen.
I mean i
f the walker is such a cull how many times do you need your hand slammed in the car door before you stop sticking it in there
In your own words.......
People that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually refered to as "inmates" or "ex-convicts".
Spanky, I never meant to imply that the Walker is automatically a cull.
It is like what Pete said in his post "What makes em good makes em bad"
I never meant to imply that I could not catch a pickup load of game with a Walker. I never meant to imply the best
pure bred hounds I have known were not Walkers. They were Walkers.
As you stated, Walkers are pretty much what Walker breeders intended them to be.
I had a line of Walkers that became a phenomenon in a three state area. It was no credit to me because i only found them and brought them to an area that had become ingrown. At six months they could do what you would hope a year old dog could do: trail and tree their own game, put their feet on that tree and bark their head off for as long as you would leave them there. There were 0% culls in the two crosses I made on these two dogs. At six months a man turned down (in the early eighties) $1,000.00 for his pup at a feild trial after being called a liar at saying the dog was six months old. At a year old these dogs looked better than a lot of decent three year old dogs. They did it all, and they did it with style, just like many, many strains of Walkers can do.
I only say this to make the point that this type of stuff is not at all uncommon in the Walker breed. It is a strong, strong breed. It is cuter than all get out to see a two month old pup start doing all the things that you expect a grown , trained dog to do. It is like a miniature of the full grown version. At these early stages you think you got the smartest dogs in the world.
My point is,
it has nothing to do with being smart. It has everything to do with following the undeniable urges of their genetic make up. What I found with these dogs was that they look extremly smart in their first year. But four years later, they are still doing the same things. Maybe some things a little better, and some things worse than when they were young, because of time to develope bad habits. This does not look smart to me. Smart means to me the ability to learn and keep learning from every experience as long as the dog lives, or at least until the old age decline.
If I had been a bear hunter or a coon hunter or a lion hunter, these dogs would have been all I wanted or needed. I could have sat back and enjoyed having people beat a path to my door from three or four states every time I made a cross. But I was not a bear or coon or lion hunter. I wanted to catch the bobcats on the coast range of Oregon. I could catch the bobcats in the cascades, I could catch the bobcats in the high desert. I could only catch a small percentage of bobcats in the Coastal mountains. These dogs constantly looked like idiots in the coast range, and they kept making the same mistakes that made them look like idiots for as long as i kept them.
I know there are Walkers that are smarter than those Walkers were.
Tell you what. The first time I see a Walker stop trailing, move away from another dog, stand, cock his head and listen for the moving bobcat, and cut to it, I will agree they are smart dogs. Or that first time I see The dog pull off the path of a tightly circling cat, crouch down and watch, listen and wait, I will agree they are smart dogs. Or when I see signs that the dog recognizes a certain cat that always escapes with the same manuovers, and figures out a way to anticipate the manuover and counter it, I will agree they are smart dogs. Or when I see a Walker who sits back, and every single time you see him treeing, you can follow his gaze to where the game is hidden in the thick foilage day or night, i will agree they are smart dogs. There are dogs smart enough to develop this kind of skill over the years, because they learn from their failings and mistakes, and they do things to correct them until they become successful. They get better and better as long as they are alive and healthy. I have never witnessed this kind of cognative progress in a Walker dog. If there are Walkers that are capable of this type of learning i would really like to know about them because if you put eyes and ears and a brain on a Walker dog, they would be (almost) everything I ever wanted in a bobcat dog. (I had to edit it with the [almost] as there are a couple other things I would tweek a little, but minor by comparison)
I have nothing but respect for those who developed and maintain the great Treeing Walker. There is no breed that compares, in my limited experience.
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:24 pm
by david
Pete, you rule
As you implied, every powerful gift in man or beast is an asset in the proper context, and a liability when taken out of that context.
Their strengths are also their weaknesses.
Ever notice how the very things that first attracted your wife to you, are the things she hates about you now? That is my love affair with the Treeing Walker.
spankey/david fussen
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:57 pm
by cecil j.
david wrote:Spanky wrote:Dogs that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually called "Walkers"
So what does that make you then Dave since your the authority and seem to have a hard time over coming your instincts in owning more then one.....
I have had a lot of Walkers, and some very good ones. But when you say they are smarter than hell, I am suddenly thinking that maybe hell is not very smart, or if hell is really smart, and your dogs are smarter still, then you have Walker dogs the likes of I have never seen.
I mean i
f the walker is such a cull how many times do you need your hand slammed in the car door before you stop sticking it in there
In your own words.......
People that are unable to overcome their instincts with reason are usually refered to as "inmates" or "ex-convicts".
Spanky, I never meant to imply that the Walker is automatically a cull.
It is like what Pete said in his post "What makes em good makes em bad"
I never meant to imply that I could not catch a pickup load of game with a Walker. I never meant to imply the best
pure bred hounds I have known were not Walkers. They were Walkers.
As you stated, Walkers are pretty much what Walker breeders intended them to be.
I had a line of Walkers that became a phenomenon in a three state area. It was no credit to me because i only found them and brought them to an area that had become ingrown. At six months they could do what you would hope a year old dog could do: trail and tree their own game, put their feet on that tree and bark their head off for as long as you would leave them there. There were 0% culls in the two crosses I made on these two dogs. At six months a man turned down (in the early eighties) $1,000.00 for his pup at a feild trial after being called a liar at saying the dog was six months old. At a year old these dogs looked better than a lot of decent three year old dogs. They did it all, and they did it with style, just like many, many strains of Walkers can do.
I only say this to make the point that this type of stuff is not at all uncommon in the Walker breed. It is a strong, strong breed. It is cuter than all get out to see a two month old pup start doing all the things that you expect a grown , trained dog to do. It is like a miniature of the full grown version. At these early stages you think you got the smartest dogs in the world.
My point is,
it has nothing to do with being smart. It has everything to do with following the undeniable urges of their genetic make up. What I found with these dogs was that they look extremly smart in their first year. But four years later, they are still doing the same things. Maybe some things a little better, and some things worse than when they were young, because of time to develope bad habits. This does not look smart to me. Smart means to me the ability to learen and keep learning from every experience as long as the dog lives, or at least until the old age decline.
If I had been a bear hunter or a coon hunter or a lion hunter, these dogs would have been all I wanted or needed. I could have sat back and enjoyed having people beat a path to my door from three or four states every time I made a cross. But I was not a bear or coon or lion hunter. I wanted to catch the bobcats on the coast range of Oregon. I could catch the bobcats in the cascades, I could catch the bobcats in the high desert. I could only catch a small percentage of bobcats in the Coastal mountains. These dogs constantly looked like idiots in the coast range, and they kept making the same mistakes that made them look like idiots for as long as i kept them.
I know there are Walkers that are smarter than those Walkers were.
Tell you what. The first time I see a Walker stop trailing, move away from another dog, stand, cock his head and listen for the moving bobcat, and cut to it, I will agree they are smart dogs. Or that first time I see The dog pull off the path of a tightly circling cat, crouch down and watch, listen and wait, I will agree they are smart dogs. Or when I see signs that the dog recognizes a certain cat that always escapes with the same manuovers, and figures out a way to anticipate the manuover and counter it, I will agree they are smart dogs. Or when I see a Walker who sits back, and every single time you see him treeing, you can follow his gaze to where the game is hidden in the thick foilage day or night, i will agree they are smart dogs. There are dogs smart enough to develop this kind of skill over the years, because they learn from their failings and mistakes, and they do things to correct them until they become successful. They get better and better as long as they are alive and healthy. I have never witnessed this kind of cognative progress in a Walker dog. If there are Walkers that are capable of this type of learning i would really like to know about them because if you put eyes and ears and a brain on a Walker dog, they would be (almost) everything I ever wanted in a bobcat dog. (I had to edit it with the [almost] as there are a couple other things I would tweek a little, but minor by comparison)
I have nothing but respect for those who developed and maintain the great Treeing Walker. There is no breed that compares, in my limited experience.
I don`t know spankey I think ole David was callen em culls/ but his behind the barn door switchen on it too ya sure made it all sound like he had culled walkers and why he culled them/ shuopoweeeee!?Son lighten up on spankey I don`t hold too your thinken on this david/ a close track dog that isent in a horse race will put and successfull end on the cat race/ and you know it! Are you just sayen also that walkers are horse race articts/ runnen ahead of the game instrad of thredden the needle?
Well in therroy any dog is if it cant take a cat out of a set pattern in 3-4 turns at most and to reset another pattern that laste only 2 full turns/ then runs streight ou and trees up. or, spuralls down into a death spyrell or tree up ! Like ole Ishmo Kidd woukd say (nuff said) yes, hes the very first one who explainde horse racen too me back in 62 as he knew it and as i recall he was right.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:45 pm
by blackpaws
in my opinion it's the same for evry breed. not just walkers. i don't have one special breed that i hunt i just hunt good crosses for that specific game. some work out and some don't. i do agree that you do have to have the genetics behind them for certain abilities such as cold trailing and sound of voice.
Re: spankey/david fussen
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:36 pm
by david
cecil j. wrote:[ I think ole David was callen em culls/ Son lighten up on spankey I don`t hold too your thinken on this david/ / a close track dog that isent in a horse race will put and successfull end on the cat raceand you know it! Are you just sayen also that walkers are horse race articts/ runnen ahead of the game instrad of thredden the needle?
.
For some reason, this thread on the decline of the Treeing Walker was placed here in the cat thread. So I am assuming some comment was wanted on the dogs as bobcat dogs.
I dont think the Treeing Walker is in decline. I would stick my neck out and say that from what I can see, Treeing Walkers are probably responsible for more bobcats than all the other UKC registered coon hounds combined.
So in trying to answer Cecil's question to me I would say: You are right, I do know that Treeing Walkers can put an end to a certain percentage of bobcat races. In excelent snow conditions, they can put an end to a large percentage of bobcat races, along with all other breeds. I am not worried about them being horse race artists, there are plenty of Walkers that can settle down and work a bobcat track.
What I would like to see more of in the breed for bobcats, would be the ability to learn, remember, and even plan and appearantly strategize, as I have seen wild canines, and some domestic breeds of canine do. The ones that do this, employ all their senses including sight and hearing.
I will give you a hypothetical example that might be familiar to alot of you.
A bobcat takes a big tree that is next to and even leaning on a rock wall.
The two dogs are on him, and they see him climb. There is no locating issue, it is straight to feet on the tree, eyes glazed over, head thrown back, slobbering tree barks at 80-120 bpm for the good Walker dog. Hour after hour, for as long as it takes for the hunter to get there. To slide down into the canyon, hike a mile downstream to find a crossing log, hike a mile back up stream and climb on hands and knees up the other side, only sliding and rolling to the bottom twice befor a succesful ascent to the tree. It only took two hours. That is nothing for the good Walker.
But when he gets there, there is only one dog at the tree. The Good Walker. The reason is, the other dog kept his eyes on that cat. He could even hear him moving up the tree in between the Walker's tree barks. When he could not see the cat exactly, he could still hear him occasionally, and knew it was climing higher. He could hear and see dirt sliding down the rock wall, and he knew that cat was getting away. He was only at the tree a total of 30 seconds befor he was on his way to find a path around that wall to the top where he again engaged the bobcat track.
Both dogs had been on a lot of bobcats. One of them had learned a lot about bobcat behavior, and was able to overcome his treeing instinct in order to eventually catch that cat. The other had learned alot about bobcat behavior also, and had even been on this same tree befor. But his instincts to shut down all senses and tree bark endlessly would not allow him to: 1) sense the escape of the cat 2)sense the absence of the cat after a time because of the absence of air borne scent molecules from the bobcats body 3) reason his way out of that situation at the bottom of the rock wall.
People sometimes talk about dogs that learn to shut up just befor catching a cat. I used to think that this was only so that he the cat could not hear the dog so easily. I have seen a dog that did it so that she could hear the movement of the cat and put her eyes on it. Bobcats are not that fast. A dog that learns bobcat behavior over the years and has a system that allows him to apply that knowledge, should be making bobcat races shorter and shorter.
I am very serious in saying that if you have, or know of, walker dogs that fit the description of the non-walker in this story, I really, really want to know about them.
Re: spankey/david fussen
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:17 pm
by cecil j.
david wrote:cecil j. wrote:[ I think ole David was callen em culls/ Son lighten up on spankey I don`t hold too your thinken on this david/ / a close track dog that isent in a horse race will put and successfull end on the cat raceand you know it! [/b2]Are you just sayen also that walkers are horse race articts/ runnen ahead of the game instrad of thredden the needle?
.
For some reason, this thread on the decline of the Treeing Walker was placed here in the cat thread. So I am assuming some comment was wanted on the dogs as bobcat dogs.
I dont think the Treeing Walker is in decline. I would stick my neck out and say that from what I can see, Treeing Walkers are probably responsible for more bobcats than all the other UKC registered coon hounds combined.
So in trying to answer Cecil's question to me I would say: You are right, I do know that Treeing Walkers can put an end to a certain percentage of bobcat races. In excelent snow conditions, they can put an end to a large percentage of bobcat races, along with all other breeds. I am not worried about them being horse race artists, there are plenty of Walkers that can settle down and work a bobcat track.
What I would like to see more of in the breed for bobcats, would be the ability to learn, remember, and even plan and appearantly strategize, as I have seen wild canines, and some domestic breeds of canine do. The ones that do this, employ all their senses including sight and hearing.
I will give you a hypothetical example that might be familiar to alot of you.
A bobcat takes a big tree that is next to and even leaning on a rock wall.
The two dogs are on him, and they see him climb. There is no locating issue, it is straight to feet on the tree, eyes glazed over, head thrown back, slobbering tree barks at 80-120 bpm for the good Walker dog. Hour after hour, for as long as it takes for the hunter to get there. To slide down into the canyon, hike a mile downstream to find a crossing log, hike a mile back up stream and climb on hands and knees up the other side, only sliding and rolling to the bottom twice befor a succesful ascent to the tree. It only took two hours. That is nothing for the good Walker.
But when he gets there, there is only one dog at the tree. The Good Walker. The reason is, the other dog kept his eyes on that cat. He could even hear him moving up the tree in between the Walker's tree barks. When he could not see the cat exactly, he could still hear him occasionally, and knew it was climing higher. He could hear and see dirt sliding down the rock wall, and he knew that cat was getting away. He was only at the tree a total of 30 seconds befor he was on his way to find a path around that wall to the top where he again engaged the bobcat track.
Both dogs had been on a lot of bobcats. One of them had learned a lot about bobcat behavior, and was able to overcome his treeing instinct in order to eventually catch that cat. The other had learned alot about bobcat behavior also, and had even been on this same tree befor. But his instincts to shut down all senses and tree bark endlessly would not allow him to: 1) sense the escape of the cat 2)sense the absence of the cat after a time because of the absence of air borne scent molecules from the bobcats body 3) reason his way out of that situation at the bottom of the rock wall.
People sometimes talk about dogs that learn to shut up just befor catching a cat. I used to think that this was only so that he the cat could not hear the dog so easily. I have seen a dog that did it so that she could hear the movement of the cat and put her eyes on it. Bobcats are not that fast. A dog that learns bobcat behavior over the years and has a system that allows him to apply that knowledge, should be making bobcat races shorter and shorter.
I am very serious in saying that if you have walker dogs that fit the description of the non-walker in this story, I really, really want to know about them.
Now your talken cold real turkey bubba cause ya said a whole lot right on that about brains/ let me explain my humble view of it:
Well if ya look at a genitic code marker re-out on any coon dog that has been DNA`ed and then PROFILED you will note the better stud dogs the better gyps for reproducen offspeing show a bunch of doubled up letters which means doubled up genes. Now again your right cause that don`t make em smart/ hell it might only make em no pull the pin get solo under the tree nite hunt dogs & their brains are indeed smart but turned too be professional compition coon dogs and it passes on down the line by the hunter who keep old Rat attack & Pat Attack type dogs, but they don`t get to be tree smart they are tree slick enoughf to get the trr and keep it solo ! It maybe empty as hell too, they don`t get whoped no repermanded for it/ usually.
Look for a breeder who employs no compitition hounds in the first 3 genorations of his pups yur looken at to buy/ he has gleaned and gleaned and reduced that bad dominate gean too not show up in his kept dog, and if it does he is trainer enoughf he can work it out of the pup ! That means this is the better calaber dog for cat,gray fox etc...
Joe House,James Merchant and Lester Nance was master walker breeders and had an eye for it. You might be hard pressed to find a line of Joe House dogs that arn`t as smart as any bird dog/ Ya know he has allways kept bird dogs too and lookes at his coon dogs with that same bird dogs trainers eyes !
When Nances ole Topper was alive and trowen his fair share as a stud dog into the made crosses/ by thunder they was too the limb trr dogs, not just tree barkers ! Same with James Merchants stud dogs they was tree up dogs not just tree barkers and same for Joe House dogs ! There is just as many lines in other breeds kept just as good or samely and you got too search and cull from openions too facts/ once ya see a fact it becomes reak/ then forget the searching and go right too the well and get one for yourself>On bear however, beardogs is born special or just never become a surenuff for real/ nuff said BEAR DOG/ you know that well ya have too if your a successfull hunter and I hear ya are and ya talk like a man whos been around the block at least 1-2 times your self/ right ?
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:44 pm
by david
I hesitated to use the tree example, because my point is not regarding false treeing. It is regarding any of the very powerful instincts that treeing walkers posess. Including the inability to leave a track if that is what it takes to get the animal stopped.
Here's some more ot the story:
The two dogs are back in the same territorry hunting together again. The owner is going to give that sorry female another chance. She was not at that tree last time, but at least she showed up on the road the next morning. That Walker male is well known as a powerful bear dog but now he is making headlines on what a powerful cat dog he is. Could not see the cat but it was a huge bushy tree. Could have hid a lot of bobcats up there.
This time the female recognizes that this is that same darn cat. That cat is heading for that same darn tree. And that little female is not going any where near that tree, because she is doing everything in her power to meet that bobcat as he climbs over that last rock at the top.
She had to overcome her instinct to stay with that trail come hell or high water. She wanted to catch that bobcat alot more than she wanted to trail.
I am talking specific examples but it is all about the ability to reason, remember and strategize above and beyond the need to follow instinct.
Dogs like this do make mistakes, but they learn from their mistakes and they make fewer and fewer as they get more and more experience.
That Walker dog is back at that same tree barking his head off again. Can you say he made a mistake? I dont know if it is really even a mistake. He is only doing what his genetic make-up demands. Is he false treeing? Not in the truest sense of that term. He saw the animal climb that tree. In the right context, it is beautiful and powerful. In fact, this is a legendary bear dog that many people would love to own, and would pay big money for if the owner would sell him.
That sorry female, no one even hears about her. She left the tree again.
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:13 pm
by Melanie Hampton
I know you example is not of dogs who hunt in the cliffs, bluff type country but
Any dog who hunts in the cliffs has to learn to overcome that "tree" instinct.. Dogs will get hung up on a tree where the cat went up and came off or even just a cliff.. Their instinct says it went up, this is the last place I smell it, that means it must be here... I don't care if it is a bobcat or a lion, or even a bear.. They still have to figure out that the game animal of choice is not sitting at the top of said tree, or rock.. Is it easier for them because of the type of terrain they hunt in.. Maybe.. I don't have a clue..
So, in regards to what this post was originally about.. Do I think the Walker's are declining as a breed? No more then any other breed I have seen...
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:27 pm
by david
Yes, I dont know how to get my point across without using examples. And every example is going to be flawed.
The cat doesnt need to do exactly the same thing, because the dog is learning cat behavior. It could be in a different state. There are dogs that begin to anticipate bobcat behavior, and the races get shorter and shorter and the percentage of caught cats gets higher and higher.
Bobcat races after the jump for some dogs are often under 30 minutes.
And they catch more than 50% of the cats they jump. If the cat does not climb in that time window, it will be stopped on the ground.
If this is the type Walkers you have, I want to know more about them.
a lot more.
I fully agree with you as far as decline of the breed goes.
Also, I love your signature at the bottom of your post's.
I think I missed my chance on this one fer sure.
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:47 pm
by Melanie Hampton
Aw hell, I never use it
My sig that is.. I blame my parents since they both are the hardest headed people I know.. I had no chance
Forgive me.. I have a nasty cold and the cold medicine is making me a little more loopy then normal... So I might totally be missing your point.. Probably am..
We don't catch cats on the ground here.. So they haven't and most likely are not going to figure it out at home.. Yes out of state they have learned that cats aren't usually sitting at the top of the cliff.. the cat is still going.. Most of the time they will often have to run around to a spot they can climb up and then go back to where the cat left unless they cut it before that.. And it can be a long long was down through the cliffs..
I would be lying if I said they figured that out all by themselves.. They learned it from hunting with a cliff savvy dog.. The first few times the would sit at the base and bark up.. But they figured that out quick that the cat really wasn't there...
So if I missed your point again.. Then I will just bow out gracefully and give up LOL
