BigGameHoundsmen.com

Hey all, I know Mike Leonard is in the four corners area, though I'm not sure where that is? Is that in Orgeon?

IT is right here where I'm from New Mexico,Colorado,Arizona,Utah area they all connect in 4 points, and he would be a good one to talk to if you need a cold nosed cat dog

I know of people in the real world that drop five to ten grand every year for bear dogs. Are they worth it? The market says so. These guys have good jobs and want to catch game on the weekends. They don't want to train dogs. They have bought dogs from a couple of guys I know in California where they also hunt. The problem with dogs is even if you store them in a covered place they still depreciate.

I guess I'm old fashioned, but I like to start with a pup, I have never baught a finished dog that some one eles has trained. I think you get a better dog out of one that you have raised. The up side to raisein a pup is you know there in's and out's and you know there habits. Now I'm not tryin to knock any one how has bought or buys finished or started dogs, some folks just flat dont have time to full with a pup. So please dont any one think I'm tryin to knock ya. The down side to buying a finished dog(for the most part, not all the time though) the dog will not do for you what they did for the person who raised them,I'm not sayin they wont hunt but most of the time they dont seem to hunt as hard for the new person. But like I said, thats not always the case. I just found that out. I just sold a finished hog dog to a kid that had baught some pups from a while back. The dog I sold him is a jam up hog dog, she's really good but she wouldn't hardly put a mouth on a hog for me, just enough to get it stoped then backed off and bayed. But for him she thinks she's a catch dog, I dont know why there issuch a change in huntin styles on the dogs part. But I have seen it alot with dogs my buddies have baught that are finished, they baught them as lose bay dogs and alot have turned out to be really catchy dogs. But this is just what I think. Now I dont want any one to think I'm a hipacrit, becuase I have been lookin for a check dog to check my to young start dogs, but I'm not lookin for a 5-6 year old gunner I'm lookin for an old dog that runs nothin but bear so I can tell what my two are startin. So if any one out there has an old dog that cant make the races any more, but will only open on bear please let me know, I will give it a good home for the rest of it's years, all it will really have to do is sit on the box and open on a bear track. My two young dogs will only run Hogs, bear and cat. But some of the country I run all three are there and I dont know witch one of the three there startin.

Okay.. I am going to write this and try not to offend anyone.. Forgive me, I am tired and not on top of my word game

IMO most people just starting out... They REALLY should go hunt with the local guys first.. The guys who are actually catching things (you will find there are two types of hunters.. the one' s who do and the one's who don't) go and see what all goes into hunting.. The bad days.. the drive all day without a strike.. chasing deer.. lost dogs etc.. Plus you get to see what they are running and why..

Heck.. I know people who consider themselves houndsmen and women and have caught 3 cats in 4 years.. Just because you own them doesn't give you the title..

I also believe in the finished dog.. Especially when you are having to save a pretty penny to get it.. Now I love training pups myself.. but I am in this game for life.. and have had some fabulous mentors myself.. And no offense to beginners (not pointing fingers at ANYONE) but most don't make it.. So then you have a young dog wasting on a chain..

You can get a well bred pup and do a lot of footwork and might catch some bobcats.. and some people can handle it.. I know houndsmen who have had hounds for years that prefer to buy already started dogs.. They can't start pups..

Or you can jump right into the game with something that knows what it is doing Especially for bobcats..

jeez melanie, didnt know i pissed ya off so bad? haha lol

Timberhound wrote:jeez melanie, didnt know i pissed ya off so bad? haha lol

Nah... You got yourself hooked up with someone who knows what they are doing.. You are ahead of the game.. You are forgiven for getting the dog first

three rivers catahoulas wrote:I guess I'm old fashioned, but I like to start with a pup, I have never baught a finished dog that some one eles has trained. I think you get a better dog out of one that you have raised. .

I have done a lot of both. I started out with pups, and if you are hunting in snow, you can train up a pup by walking him on bobcat tracks, and getting him broke off trash. It is really really hard work, and extremely time consuming, but you will get an college course on bobcats by keeping your pup on a leash while you do all the cold trailing.

This is the most amazing training technique I know of, and the dogs I have trained this way have all been above average. You can constantly be teaching the dog about every track of every animal, every animal sighted, and every situation wether rocks, rivers, roads or traps. You are a true mentor, and beleive me, your pup is paying attention to you. If you have the type dog that wants to please you, this is extremely powerful training. He will learn everything that pleases you and everything that does not. Talk to him a lot, and tell him what is good and what is bad. Let your emotions show, and maybe over-exagerate them a bit if you encounter off game or traps.

I definately understand three rivers catahoulas position. Recently, I was looking back on all the dogs I have owned and evaluating them. Among the adult dogs I have purchased (and some for a rediculous amount of money), there is not one that made my list of favorite dogs. All my best dogs were raised from pups.

From my perspective, the biggest problem with raising from a pup, is there are just a lot of pups that will not make bobcat dogs even when given the best of training. It is heart breaking to raise up a pup, and then make the slow painful realization that the pup will never make a comlete bobcat dog.

This might be one reason why most of my cats have been caught with a team of two dogs. I end up with a well trained dog that is lacking in certain areas, then I go looking for the dog that is strong in those areas, but might be weak where the other dog is strong. When the two dogs click together, it can be, (and has been), deadly. Very deadly.

It's hard to admit, but I have never owned a bobcat dog that was complete in every way, Yet I have caught a lot of game using pairs of dogs that compliment each other.

I recomend the pup pathway, just because you can get out, have some fun, and learn an awful lot about the game you are after. It is a long hard way to go, but sometimes the long hard way is better than the short easy way. If you miss out on the great experience of deep bonding and mutual trust with a dog, then, in my opinion, you miss out on what helps make this one of the greatest sports there is.

Whatever you do, just have fun out there, dont forget about your family, and remember: they are still just dogs.

Excellent post David!

Thankyou Mike,
Coming from what I consider to be one of the most undiscovered of the great outdoor writers, I take it as a high compliment.

I keep checking Feild and Stream, Outdoor Life, and the library for your articles and books. Where are they Mike???

Well said David, can't wait to work my new pup. Lot's of obedience and swim lessons for now. I have learned more about working and training dogs in the last month on this site than I did in the last 13 on my own. Being a first generation dog hunter, glad for the internet, has made me more confident about working pups. Thanks for all the info from you and Mike.

Not to put the cart ahead of the horse here, but once you have a good bobcat dog, it is essential that you put the needs of your kennel ahead of your lust for bobcat blood. I have discovered with my own pack that running a pup with an experienced bobcat dog can teach him things that you can't. Each season I take a young promising dog and throw him down on as many bobcats I can find. I will run him with one good dog and run him with the other good dog the next day. He gets twice the bobcat races that each of the veterans get. I feel it is important from early on that he experiences success. It will help program him to catch and not just follow scent. This will, at times hinder the old dog's progress, but if don't want to lose the ability to catch bobcats you have to sacrifice a little. Once it becomes more about the dogs than the cat this is easy.